Kips sub shaft o-ring

[billie_morini]

Kawi and Chuck,
Millennium Outside Sales Manager, Jason Duplantis, rapidly replied to my email. I've prevailed on Jason a second time, emphasizing the unavailability of this part because his initial response is:

"We get them from McMaster.

My techs are being cheeky with the part #"

I'm much more interested in finding a replacement part that fits well enough than machining the rod to accommodate a substitute part. In the engineering work I've retired from, we always found it better to not create one-off solutions. So, we'll see what Jason D says next time around.

Meanwhile, I'll keep trying to help, too.

[billie_morini]

I will phone Jeff Fredette on ThursdAy to see what he can offer.

[Chuck78]

I would say it's likely then that they have probably found the same fitment that we have found, unless we've missed a size somewhere that is even more viable. I browsed a significant amount of size offerings in metric and SAE, on McMaster Carr and other sites, and that was the closest I could find. Since the ID is smaller than the shaft, it will probably stretch it out some and thin it out slightly but give near proper fit once installed without modifying the shaft. I do recall someone saying that Jeff Fredette mentioned that his "o-ring" substitute/replacement is a bit tighter fit than the original, but does work. I will probably go ahead and order some of those -008 x-rings myself to see, once we hear back from your ventures, Billie. Thank you for furthering our efforts!

By the way, why not try just directly asking the contact at Millennium *IF* they are using a -008 sized x-ring / quad ring as their substitute? If the rep asks his technicians in that format, they may be more likely to give us a tip off if we were right on the money.

[billie_morini]

Update: I spoke directly with Jeff Fredette. He uses a silicone O-ring because he could not find the X-ring. This O-ring works for him: does not leak, requires only one (1) O-ring, and no modification to the rod. I ordered three (3) from him and will send one each to Kawibunga and Chuck78 so they can see see & evaluate these O-rings. I kinda think, "IF it works for Jeff Fredette, then it'll work for me."

I see Chuck's idea above to ask the Millennium company if they use the Dash 008 X-ring from McMaster-Carr. I'll do this in a few days, if no reply is received from the Millennium sales manager for my most recent follow-up email to him.

Heck, Chuck's commending me for my simple efforts when it's Kawibunga and Chuck that are making fast paced technically-based inroads on this subject. I'm just trying to keep up.

[Kawibunga]

That would be Awesome billie! Just stick one in snail mail with a post card from California :) Much appreciated

Should have some measurements and pics this weekend for everyone. Have not done much the last days as been busy building a nice "wood working bench" setup in the shop for my middle lad (the 18 year old) University not his thing, but he's a heck of a wood worker so going to tech college for Cabinet Making..... But I do now have the McMaster Xrings in my hands, both types.

[billie_morini]

All,
here are the dimensions and photo of the silicone "Fredette O-rings."

Commercial vendors indicate the maximum temperature for silicone o-rings is 205C (400F). Even though Jeff Fredette told me on the phone that these o-rings have worked well for him, I may install a higher temp material if I go with o-rings.

Cross section (CS): 1.6mm
Inner diameter (ID): 5mm, maybe 4.7mm
Outer diameter (OD): 8mm, maybe 8.2mm

[Kawibunga]

Ok, so some fun updates!

First I'd like to thank billie for shipping me the sample, it showed up today in the great white north! Post card and Freddette sticker and everything! :) Very much appreciated. That's what these communities are about. So first thing, these orings above from Fredette should work just fine. Assembled it measures .325" OD. So on the high end of what I suggested in my above post, but should work fine and I'd never aruge with the likes of Jeff Fredette.

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Now I wanted to know what the actual bore was. So I printed some homemade pin gauges. On my cylinder I'd say they come in at .315".......... my .314 would go in, but no way .316 was going, so I'll call it .315"

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If you go to the above post you'll note that my original measurements with the factory packing on was .317" OD. So that's only .002" squeeze. Which sure ain't much. Now seals can "take a set" after a time for sure. But my guess is Kawasaki wanted as low a sliding friction seal as possible, so don't run a bunch of squeeze.

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So I also printed out a little stepped tapered shaft that I could load this Xrings on. The idea is to find the exact groove diamter to give me in that .320" to .322" OD of the XRING with the seal installed. My initial numbers show a groove ID of .190" will do that. So that plan is to triple check that by doing a few more prints, then hold my breath while I get some machining done........... will post again once that happens!

[Kawibunga]

Pic of XRING on test shaft to determine what my groove diameter should be........

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[Chuck78]

Billie, thank you very kindly! I'd received your o-ring Monday I believe, but have had a busy week and haven't been on KDXRider hardly at all, and no shop time at home whatsoever....

Kawibunga, NICE WORK!!!!!!!

It later occured to me, but I'd failed to find time to post, that I have several machinists drill bit sets that should pretty readily work as bore gauges, so I may check to see if there are any bits sized around .315" to double check against my two cylinders which are on the shelves.

I feel that measuring the originals will only yield smaller dimensions than the designed specs, as like you said, the old seals will take to a setting and hardening etc especially after 20-30 years of heat cycling and operation, so that although the design squish may have been a minimum for low friction operation, it was likely intended to be a bit tighter than measured at this stage...

I'll try and make a bit of time to look into it on my end this weekend or Monday evening and gather more thoughts on the matter
The X-ring definitely seems like a better design for this application and would also allow a lighter squish for smoother operation while being more durable perhaps?

[billie_morini]

Kawibunga,
I'm pleased the postal service did not fail. You are welcome. It's the least I can do in response to effort you are expending.
billie

[KDXGarage]

Thank you all for your efforts!

[Kawibunga]

Latest update:

I tried .180 / .185 / .190 seal ID's. The .190 seemed to be tbe best coming in at .323" OD.......

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But in all honesty, after running it into the bore with some grease, sure it goes no problem, but I'd like to feel a little less friction. Seems a bit tighter than I'd like. So my .190 will definitely be my max. The .185 comes in at where you'd expect, with a .318" OD. So I'll probably give it a bit of an odd tolerance on the machine drawing of .190 +.000 / -.004 on the shaft........

Will update when next steps are completed!

[billie_morini]

Kawi, you are clever!

For kicks, please do a drag "feel" test with the silicon "Fredette" o-ring.

I transmitted an email to the sales contact at Millennium early this week. This email inquiries whether Millenium installs this:

008 X-RING --- McMaster-Carr 6540K118

No answer so far. Chopperpilot expressed interest in asking Millennium what x-ring they installed. Haven't heard whether he did or not. Chopperpilot also offered to disassemble his KIPS to see what he can see with the "Millennium" x-ring. Can this help us / you in any way?

[Kawibunga]

For kicks, please do a drag "feel" test with the silicon "Fredette" o-ring.

That I can do, kinda curious too........... as for clever, not so sure about that. Maybe "handy" some days according to the wife, but I've done too many stupid things to be accused of being clever

[jamiethegiraffe]

Watching this thread closely as my “turned down”hardware store O ring was binding up the kips after sitting for the duration of snowmobile season.
I’m definitely going to call fredette and pick up a few of those silicone O-rings, but would love to arrive at an off-the-shelf X ring solution- even if it means sending the shaft out for machining. Kawibunga's .185-.190 shaft ID might be just the ticket.
Thank you guys for your all of your hard work and research on this topic. I've been waylaid by this packing seal several times over the past couple of years. I will be overjoyed if I can get it to seal up, move freely, and quit biting me in the ass during the middle of race season!

[jamiethegiraffe]

Seals ordered from McMaster Carr - both Viton/FKM & Buna/Nitrile 008 Xings- but will see if I can source some from HNBR/HSN as well locally from some seal guys........
Test fitting and measurements start late next week. Will post pics and results.....

Now that you actually have the seals on hand and have done some fitment testing, do you have any opinion on which material would be the one to order? If possible, drop us a link to the one you like best!

[billie_morini]

Watching this thread closely as my “turned down”hardware store O ring was binding up the kips after sitting for the duration of snowmobile season. ...
I've been waylaid by this packing seal several times over the past couple of years. I will be overjoyed if I can get it to seal up, move freely, and quit biting me in the ass during the middle of race season!

Jamie, thank you for sharing these salient notes. You've provided real-life experience that the availability shortages of the OEM X-ring is a real-life problem. Your experience further demonstrates the need to solve the power valve seal problem.

[billie_morini]

Ok, so some fun updates!

First I'd like to thank billie for shipping me the sample, it showed up today in the great white north! Post card and Freddette sticker and everything! :) Very much appreciated. That's what these communities are about. So first thing, these orings above from Fredette should work just fine. Assembled it measures .325" OD. So on the high end of what I suggested in my above post, but should work fine and I'd never aruge with the likes of Jeff Fredette.

Kawibunga,
Thank you in return! The mailman delivered the X-rings you mailed to me. I was curiously waiting to receive the X-rings comprised of the different materials. They pretty much look and taste identical to me. Seriously, it is interesting to carefully examine the shape / form these little seal have.

Also, thank you for your continued and timely efforts to create evaluation materials, complete measurements, and provide technical expertise to address the X-ring product availability problem.

[billie_morini]

All,
I transmitted a follow-up email to Millennium's Sales Mgr Jason Duplantis per Chuck78's suggestion. The email was transmitted on Fri, Mar 14. This is one week ago. The follow-up content text is provided below. No acknowledgement or response was received.

I'm optimistic Chopperpilot can make a similar query to Millennium for the service they recently provided to him. Maybe Millennium will be more responsive to him. Chopperpilot also offered to dismantle and examine his recently serviced cylinder to see what Millennium make have done / not done when cleaning and re-installing the KIPS system. I've not thought of a solid reason to encourage Chopperpilot to do this. Maybe the smarter forum members will know what to look for / how best to measure parts for this effort to be beneficial.

Hello Jason,
Previously, you tried to help me know what seal Millennium installs for the KDX 220 power valve righthand rod seal. You shared that the technicians were cheeky with the McMaster-Carr part number. Please inquire within Millennium if the actual seal Millennium installs is this one.

008 X-RING --- McMaster-Carr 6540K118

[Chopperpilot]

I asked Millennium about what seal they used on mine, specifically if it was the McMaster Carr one. No response, perhaps a call is in order after spending that chunk of money. Also, I can always disassemble it and see what they used.