Kips sub shaft o-ring

[Kawibunga]

... The problem is having members find someone to cut down the shaft groove diameter very slightly. I can see some DIY'ers finding some way to do this by chucking it into a drill clamped into a vise!

Yikes! But there are some brilliant DIYer's out there, so I have no doubt someone could do it, and do it well...........

[Chuck78]

I'm thinking I ought to order a carbide tip in this exact width perhaps, as I wouldn't trust myself to grind a tool steel bit perfectly straight and perpendicular, but I could do it in two passes with the tool bit angled and just using the very tip, flipping the angle the opposite direction on the second pass to do the other half. Then I would probably follow it with some emery cloth while spinning it in the lathe. Fold It up in a u-shape and try not to hit the sides, just trying to smooth out the bottom.
I'm not much of a machinist but I do have some old antique metal working equipment, 1959 South Bend Heavy 10L lathe, 1946 Atlas MFB horizontal mill, 1980's Enco round column vertical mill.... Amateur at best at it lol...

[JimmyB]

Instead of 2 o-rings side by side could you use 1 o-ring and a thin Teflon back up ring, we use them at work in some high pressure systems but not this small and thin width wise, I believe the Teflon can take up to 500deg f.

Just thinking, another option might be to get a o-ring the correct width and ID and grind the OD down to size, very hard to machine rubber but can be ground down, drop of CA in the grove to secure it and grind the OD.

I replaced my o-ring with a OEM one years back that I had so every top end since just clean replace and lube as its still holding so haven't had to deal with it for a while.

[Kawibunga]

oh yeah, you'd be able to do it for sure! My issues is I just LEFT a big machine shop - now back on the other side of the industry again at a downhole tool company, but can definitely get it done, probably at no cost due to knowing guys.

I actually destroyed the damping rod housing in one the forks during a rebuild this summer so I have to do some cutting, welding and machining to fix it, as you have to buy the whole assembly otherwise. One of the young machinists at the old company will do the turning for me for beers. .......... I think Slick_Nick has a lathe too and is local and might work for beer and stories :)....... But this stupidity is a story for another day, once I get it fixed. As I'm too embarrassed to discuss until it's fixed due to my stupidity in wrecking it!!! It was a bad day and long story...........

[Chuck78]

This place has what appears to be the exact same -008 SAE X-Ring as McMaster-Carr's offerings which I posted the solidworks drawing file of, but listed by it's metric dimensions, and only a minimum quantity of 10 required... Unless you think the McMaster-Carr offerings will be significantly higher quality, it may pay to shop here and compare shipping rates to you:

https://www.oringsandmore.com/x-rings-4 ... um-10-pcs/

[Chuck78]

Chuck, a bit of background info with regards to my thought process with regards to Oring sizing What we have here for me is what I think is called "confirmation Bias" unfortunately. In my day job I design downhole tools for the oil and gas industry (mechanical engineer). The tools that go in the ground when they're drilling and fracking etc oil & gas wells. Sealing hydrocarbons and other stuff at 10,000 psi / 300°F - in this industry we primarily used SAE standard seal sizes, thus that's what I'm most familiar with. We'll use metric seals in odd applications where there is no other choice. But it's easier to find SAE seals in the higher end elastomers that these applications demand. High end VItons and HNBR etc.......

With regards to Viton/FKM vs BUNA/Nitrile - viton is great chemically but weak mechanically. Much better chance of actually just tearing and breaking this seal during installation and wear and tear vs a BUNA/Nitrile seal - But standard Buna/Nitrile is not near as chemically & heat resistant as Viton, but the super duper version of Nitrile, Hydrogenated Nitrile (HNBR or HSN as it's called) is pretty much as good everywhere as viton, but way better mechanically. Hence my choices are HNBR/HSN - VITON/FKM - BUNA/NITRILE in that order.......... and you always want them Black, that means carbon filled and way stronger, any type of seal.

WIth regards to the squeeze - that number is on the cross section. So for instance for a 008 seal - they call it a 1/16" cross section. but it's actually .070" c/s - Standard recommendation is .010" - .018" squeeze on that cross section for dynamic sealing applications. So your overall radial height from groove bottom to the bore surface would be .060". As you mentioned we're concerned about friction, so I'd error on the lower side of this range (.010" instead of .018"). Ideally I'd have some beauty nice Mitutoyo pin gauges to check the exact bore size, but I recently changed jobs, so would have to buy my own! But think I can use my 3D printer to make some gauges.

With regards to widening the groove for two seals. It might work, but in most applications what happens is individuals seals can roll, and the wider groove will increase our seal friction. Not best practice, but as I said it sure might still work, just not my preference from my experiences.

We absolutely don't want to machine the groove down too far like you say - but it wouldn't concern me going down from .217" to .176"+ - this shaft doesn't see a bunch of tension so there is no way we'd pull it apart. (but don't quote me!)

The McMaster part 6540K118 - the 008 Xring or Quad ring is EXACLTY what I want to try to get to work. It's slightly narrower but nothing I'd be worried about (instead of about .001 clearance per side on groove width, we have .004" - means pretty much nothing) My plan is to 3d print some parts and install this on it and measure the final OD with the seal on. Make sure I'm in the range, then machine the shaft groove deeper but leave the width the same, and try it!

My my last concern - which you don't have - is all though I love McMaster, they don't ship up here to Canada unless it's a corporate account. But as they are so awesome and handy, pretty much every company in my line of work does have a corporate account, so I'll get some via that (thanks for the leg work!) but our other Canadian/international members will have to go to a local seal supplier (not your local hardware) and get a 008 Xring directly from them (assuming this works)

So thanks again for the leg work on the McMaster Carr xring. My plan is to get that one, then see if my local seal guys can source one in HNBR as well, and then get to some measuring and testing done and let everyone know where I land. Probably way too much of a deep dive here and Jeff Fredette would read this call me some dumb arse nerd engineer! Job hazard I guess :)

Here's the Buna-N 70 durometer version of the -008 x-ring. The one I linked previously was the Viton version:
https://www.mcmaster.com/90025K127/



Is the linked photo displaying properly for you?

Other places to buy the same size x-ring:

https://www.theoringstore.com/store/ind ... ts_id=5042

https://www.oringsandmore.com/x-rings-4 ... um-10-pcs/

[Kawibunga]

Yup, pics are all displaying fine. Really only need the part # as I go to their website lots. Will call a supplier today and see what I can sort out. Or toss them in for our next McMaster order..........

[billie_morini]

Kawa & Chuck,
Old Guy here trying to keep up. Is the following a correct summary of your dialogue?
1. The originally manufactured o-ring is not available, but is needed for the KDX 220
2. O-rings having same dimensions have been identified and are available from more than one vendor
3. The groove in the KDX KIPPs shaft must be modified for any of the identified vendor's o-ring
4. One or both of you are interested to the extent that you will test it

[Kawibunga]

Kawa & Chuck,
Old Guy here trying to keep up. Is the following a correct summary of your dialogue?
1. The originally manufactured o-ring is not available, but is needed for the KDX 220
2. O-rings having same dimensions have been identified and are available from more than one vendor
3. The groove in the KDX KIPPs shaft must be modified for any of the identified vendor's o-ring
4. One or both of you are interested to the extent that you will test it

Perfect Summary!

[billie_morini]

Kawi, thank you for rapid reply and verifying my summary is correct. billie

[billie_morini]

This specific o-ring was discussed by KDX Forum members in 2017.

Here's the link to the discussion page and a way to get hands on this o-ring.

viewtopic.php?t=26023

I used a Tusk top end gasket set with good results. It comes with the two seals that the guys mention above. My original slotted cover oring wouldn't seal up during leak down testing. If youre ordering any OEM parts you might as well order that oring and the right KIPS shaft oring that Kawasaki refers to as "packing" on the parts break down.

Here's an Amazon vendor selling the kit mentioned above. The product photo includes this o-ring.

www.amazon.com/Gasket-Compatible-Kawasa ... 197&sr=8-1

[Chuck78]

Here is the official RM ATV-MC website listing for it:
https://www.rockymountainatvmc.com/part ... t-p?v=1350


If you search other posts about that Tusk kit, I do see other people saying that it includes everything EXCEPT the packing seal.
It shows two seals in the picture, but I believe that is just the left and right KIPS oil seal. If someone could zoom in on a computer and look at that to examine, there are two oil seals that are identical on each side, one left one right, that I believe those are in the photo. That could be a generic photo but I believe it does look like the correct gaskets.


https://www.partzilla.com/catalog/kawas ... d-cylinder

43049 is the packing seal.
92049 on the left and right are the two seals in question which I believe are what is shown in the Tusk kit picture.




I don't trust the generic gaskets enough, especially the head and base gaskets, or even any of the green gasket paper really, to buy one of those kits unless I needed a lesser part like the exhaust gaskets, because that's cheaper than just buying the exhaust o-rings and gaskets OEM or at least close to it! It would not be a bad investment just to have some of the lesser significance pieces out of it, but I will probably only be using the Cometic head gaskets from now on as well as OEM or Cometic base gaskets. OEM bearings and most likely seals unless I find a good aftermarket, and Wossner rods and 220 pistons, or Vintco on both if going A-sized piston.

[Kawibunga]

Seals ordered from McMaster Carr - both Viton/FKM & Buna/Nitrile 008 Xings- but will see if I can source some from HNBR/HSN as well locally from some seal guys........
Test fitting and measurements start late next week. Will post pics and results.....

[billie_morini]

Kawi & Chuck, It was possible to get my hands on the the Tusk Top End Gasket kit. The kit does not include packing seals number 43049 for the Left and Right Power Valve Rods. As Chuck suggested, the two seals visible in the marketing photo and actual merchandise package are the power valve control rod seals number 92049. This is verified further by the dimensions indicated on the seal face (8 14 4 millimeters), which is what they appear to be to the eyeball and where it's possible to get a ruler onto the seals through the clear plastic packaging.

I got another idea: I'll ask Millennium what they use for the packing seal 43049. They cleaned and re-installed the KIPS valve in my cylinder head when they replated the cylinder. Similarly, one of our forum members, Chopper, shared that he just sent a cylinder to Millennium for plating and KIPS valve cleaning. I'll ping him to see if he can ask them what they will do for him.

[John_S]

Hi Billie, sorry I didn’t see this earlier. If you look at the post of mine that you referenced I was saying that the Tusk kit comes with everything BUT the left hand slotted cover oring or the packing oring. I ordered those both as OEM parts and thankfully ordered 2 of the packing seal that we’re all after. Good idea to ask Millenium what they’re using when they redo cylinders.

[billie_morini]

John_S, not a problem. There was value in recently checking the gasket kit. Also, your post above helped me realize there is only one KIPS activation rod that requires the unobtanium Packing (seal).

[billie_morini]

I spoke directly with a Millennium rep today. This resulted in transmitting the following email to Millennium. Who knows? We may get a "good" answer in a few days.

SUBJECT: Source for Kawasaki Power Valve Service Packing (Seal)?

Dear Millennium,

Where does Millennium obtain the packing (seal) for the right-hand KIPS rod in the Kawasaki two-stroke Power Valve Service? The answer to this question is of great interest to KDX 200 and KDX 220 riders who have our cylinders replated by Millennium. We ask the question because this part is no longer available from Kawasaki and we have not been able to identify a commercial or industrial source for this unavailable part.

To assist Millennium in fielding the question above, the following content is attached.
1) Photo: Shows parts 43049 Packing (seal) and 46102 KIPS toothed right hand rod
2) Microfiche: Shows all cylinder components with part 43049 Packing (seal) circled in red
3) Invoice: Millennium invoice for replating and annotation showing the power valve service code

In closing, thanks to Millennium’s Jason for taking my call this morning, providing the Millennium email address, and exhibiting a helpful attitude.

Sincerely,

[Chuck78]

With the service that millennium provides, I did not ever assume that they replaced the packing seal, I thought their service was just perhaps some ultrasonic cleaning of the power valve components? Or some other type of cleaning.

Also, you just list the reference number from the parts diagrams, they may need the full part number.

Someone who is a professional machinist should start offering a service to modify these shafts for people to fit the standard quad ring size that we found.

[billie_morini]

Hi Chuck,
Maybe I'll tell you something you know. Millennium physically removes the KIPS assemblies for cylinder plating and KIPS system service (cleaning). It wouldn't make sense for them to re-install the toothed KIPS rod if the packing is bad. Let's see what they have to say.

[billie_morini]

Kawibunga, if you ever need something from a USA vendor that does nor shio to CAN, then know I will help you.