KIPS cleaning & cylinder honing

jackpiner57 · Post by **jackpiner57** » 02:41 pm May 14 2005

I just talked to the guy I sent my cylinder to and he said it looked fine. He said he can hone it and that takes a couple of thousandths off, and I can use a new stock size piston. This is the first time the motor has been apart.

He also is cleaning the KIPS and he said all you have to do is use a solvent (maybe soak it and use a parts washer) and that disassembly is unecessary, as long as everything is moving freely.

Can't wait to get it back so I can ride!

Post by **Indawoods** » 02:49 pm May 14 2005

I wouldn't have him hone it... just use scotch-brite! The coating in only a couple thousands thick!

dave04kdx · Post by **dave04kdx** » 03:04 pm May 14 2005

I dont have my manual in front of me but, if I remember right the service limit on the cylinder is around .0015. Taking .002 off would ruin the surface on the cylinder bore. Check it out before you let him do anything! I'll look at my book when I get home and post the service limits.

jackpiner57 · Post by **jackpiner57** » 05:24 pm May 14 2005

The guy I sent it to is EG. I hope he knows what he is doing.

Post by **Indawoods** » 05:32 pm May 14 2005

Well... he should!

dave04kdx · Post by **dave04kdx** » 12:35 am May 15 2005

I'm sure EG knows his stuff. I had a mental picture of Cooter from the Dukes of Hazard running a huge hone through your cylinder.

However -
The "standard" for the H model cylinder bore is 66.026mm to 66.041mm
Converted to inches that is 2.5994 to 2.6000. Leaving a grand total of .0006, a bit more than half a thousands.

The service limit (worn out) for the cylinder bore is 66.1mm or 2.6023. Taking .002 from a standard cylinder at the high end of the standard limit would basically ruin it.

I still like the scotch brite method. My 88 200 cylinder is still at the high standard after 3 top ends and hundreds of hours.

Jackpinter: Did you see the thread a few days ago about the Pro X pistons and the slightly different sizes they come in? That seems to be a good idea in my book, in contrast to an OEM piston or a Wiseco that are all about the some size.

Have fun riding when you get the parts back!

David

Post by **fuzzy** » 12:02 pm May 15 2005

I'm sure he's talking about using a fine ball-hone, and not the aluminum oxide griding hones we're all used to for steel/iron cyl's.

EG definitely won't do you wrong. He probably doesn't use scotch-brite like the rest of us because he actually has the $200 hone that's the right tool for the job.

That being said, Scotch-Brite all the way for me!!

Post by **fuzzy** » 12:05 pm May 15 2005

Ahhh, just found this....From EG:

Honing the Cylinder Bore

Many people have emailed me with questions regarding honing cylinder bores. If you want to buy a hone to deglaze bores or polish off small scratches, then a ball-hone is the best choice. Ball hones are manufactured by Brush Research in Los Angeles, under the brand name Flex-Hone. These hones are available under different labels and they are most easily available from auto parts stores. Buy a size that is 10% smaller than the actual bore size. These hones are available in several different materials and grits but the profile that bests suits both steel and plated cylinders is aluminum oxide 240 grit. A ball hone cannot remove material from the cylinder bore, especially on the hard nickel plated bores. However a ball hone can polish down the peaks of the original hone scratches and increase the bearing ratio. In other words the piston will be touching a greater percentage of the bore. Sometimes that makes the piston wear quicker but if you have to ball hone the bore to remove scratches, it’s a compromise. The one type of hone that you should never use on a two-stroke cylinder is a spring-loaded finger hone. The sharp edges of the stone will snag the port edges and most likely damage the hone and the cylinder.

canyncarvr · Post by **canyncarvr** » 10:52 am May 16 2005

That's just great...and something that has been referenced quite a few times.

But....somebody is full of BS...and it sure-as-hell matters. If I was told 'I can hone your cylinder, take a couple thou off it,' I'd be making sure the maroon that said that never touched MY bike again.

...and it's EG? Someone is mistaken about something. Words mean things (dammit anyway!!) and if the words used are that sloppy...is that the person you want working on your bike?

I'm not griping about EG..I don't know the facts...I wasn't 'there'.

Still...something stinks.

Maybe I worry too much about inconsequential stuff..but I'd sure be for getting a correct answer!!

I trusted a known source to work on my bike..and it came back less than 'right'. Then when I ASKED about it I was told, 'That can't happen.' I'm saying that just because the work is done by a world renown expert...I still don't trust everything said with no proof satisfactory to me.

Call me a cynic.

'Ok. You're a cynic!'

..thanks........

Post by **fuzzy** » 11:18 am May 16 2005

Why did you send the cyl to EG in the first place? Was it damaged in any way?

canyncarvr · Post by **canyncarvr** » 11:32 am May 16 2005

As I recall (other thread), he was concerned about its condition..wanted to make sure of it.

jp57 wrote: I tried to measure the bore with a dial caliper but came up with a different measurement every time. I figured it's best to leave that to the experts with the proper tools, so I sent it to him about a week ago.

..from:

HERE.

dave04kdx · Post by **dave04kdx** » 01:42 pm May 16 2005

Fuzzy: Good info on the hones. Clears things up a lot.

I disagree with, " He also is cleaning the KIPS and he said all you have to do is use a solvent (maybe soak it and use a parts washer) and that disassembly is unecessary, as long as everything is moving freely."

The first time I did the top end on my 88 200 the kips moved very freely. But, when I pulled the power valves the helical cut-aways were COMPLETLY filled with carbon. The bike still had the factory jetting when I bought it and had been ran very rich for along time. If I had not scraped all the crap out of those valves I would have been very disappointed with the end result of my top end overhaul.

canyncarvr · Post by **canyncarvr** » 01:54 pm May 16 2005

Dave04 wrote:I disagree with, " He also is cleaning the KIPS and he said all you have to do is use a solvent (maybe soak it and use a parts washer) and that disassembly is unecessary, as long as everything is moving freely."

That's 'cuz you're right and he's not.

Besides, AFTER you soak it in (at least) a degreaser the parts need to be lubricated on assembly. Hard to do that if it's not DISassembled in the first place.

I didn't want to appear to be Gorr-bashing ('cuz I'm not) and gripe about EVERYthing he reportedly said to JP57, but soaking a cylinder in parts cleaner isn't going to get the job done.

Well..unless the parts cleaner solution is some nasty stuff..in which case you don't want your cylinder soaking in it!

But...I'm not a world-famous bike mechanic, either. I'm sure there are a gazillion things he knows of which I have no clue....but I'd like to hear a reasonable explanation of 'a couple thou' and 'soak it in parts cleaner.'

There's gotta be some misunderstanding about something somewhere. imo and all that.

dave04kdx · Post by **dave04kdx** » 04:56 pm May 16 2005

But...I'm not a world-famous bike mechanic, either. I'm sure there are a gazillion things he knows of which I have no clue....

Ditto!

Just trying to help

Post by **Indawoods** » 05:07 pm May 16 2005

If it was me... and I know your not me, but this is how my mind works...

I'd say...."OK... just send it back to me then."

Then I'd just scotch-brite it , mic it and order a piston. I may be cheap but I know when a professional is not needed.

If by some freak accident Eric would screw it up... he'd fix it. So, you are in good hands I'm sure.

IdahoCharley · Post by **IdahoCharley** » 06:25 pm May 16 2005

I like the way CC thinks. We need to watch what we say and how we comment on some threads. Without being there or have a direct e-mail reference maybe something is being taken out of context. i.e. Thousands of a mm maybe. Disassemby of the PV is what he does on all the cylinders he works on per his web site. Personnally know that my two cylinders were completely dissassembled and thoughly cleaned/polished and new o-rings installed on my KTMs.

FWIW - I've dealt with Eric Gorr a number of times and have be 110% satisfied. I find it hard to believe that Eric Gorr would have responded on either the cylinder honing OR KIPS valve cleaning with those comments. I'll go out on the limb and say its much more likely someone else was handling the phone conversation on his behalf.

jackpiner57 · Post by **jackpiner57** » 10:05 pm May 16 2005

I'm really not worried about him screwing up my cylinder.

He said what I said he said. He also knows I'm clueless so he probably wasn't as careful in how he explained it? I'm not worried.

Fuzzy, I tried to measure the bore with a dial caliper but kept coming up with different numbers. I figured it was just as cheap to UPS it to him rather than try to find someone around here with a bore gauge. He is supplying me with a new wiseco too. It may have been cheaper for me to get the piston from mail order but I just figured that since I can't measure, I might as well let him take care of it. He said it would be $20.00 to hone it. He said the bore looked good, but I told him there was a very small gouge above the exhaust port so that's when he said he would hone it. Thanks for the ball hone info too.

CC, from what I hear , he does know what he is doing but maybe uses the wrong terminology sometimes? I asked him about the con rod play (remember the metronome thread?) and he calls that "radial" play. Technically I disagree with that terminology from what I have learned from the repair manual page 7-11 under "connecting rod big end radial clearance".

Anyway this is the first top end I've done in 30 yrs. and I didn't know
what I was doing back then!

daveo4kdx, I think he said his man Cooter was gonna use a "rough hone on a hammer drill" HAHA! (just kidding)

Idaho, I specifically asked if he could take apart the kips and clean it and that's the answer i got. (not kidding)

I'm not going to worry about it, I'll just gap the rings and put it the new parts and ride! I'll let you guys know what it looks like when I get it back.[/quote]

KDXer · Post by **KDXer** » 11:49 pm May 16 2005

Just to be safe I would definately be asking him to disassemble and clean the KIPS. It wasn't until I pulled all of mine out that I found missing teeth, worn parts etc. I know it has been said already (and what do I know) but seriously mate ask him to check and clean it all.

jackpiner57, I'm not going to worry about it, I'll just gap the rings and put it the new parts 'CROSS MY FINGERS' and ride! I'll let you guys know what it looks like when I get it back.

Good luck with it mate.... Trev...

Post by **fuzzy** » 11:36 am May 17 2005

I'm going to go out on a limb, and say that EG probably doesn't want to sit and explain what he is doing to every person that sends him a jug. He certainely does it, because any good businesman would, but I'm sure he'd rather be working on the next jug in the queue that's going to make him some money. That being said, I'm sure he may have said some things that would get him off the phone quicker even if they were not 100% accurate. IE KIPS cleaning/couple thou....
I've certainely been guilty of this a number of times on the phone. IMO, and all that....

You know that he knows that he's not taking a couple thou off the cyl. On the ladder, I HOPE he disassembles your KIPS....

Re: Bore diameter. A Mic will only get you in the 'ballpark' when your talking about a plated cyl. 'Ballpark' being .001" Wiseco only makes one STD size piston, so you're never really going to know the piston clearance....The truth of the matter is that no one is ever really going to know their piston clearance. The exception is Inda who had his bore measured by a $1M+ machine. I don't even think EG can truely measure a plated cyl(no $1M+ machine). Pro-X makes pistons sized down to a gnat's ass, but again you need a high dollar measurement job or the history of the motor to truely use these sizes. What does this all mean? WARM UP your bike w/ that forged Wiseco in it before riding it.....You might be on the tight side & you might not, but there is only one feasable way to tell and that's by riding it cold and seeing if it sticks.

canyncarvr · Post by **canyncarvr** » 11:39 am May 17 2005

re: 'I'll just gap the rings'

You don't gap the rings. Do not gap the rings. Do not try to gap the rings.

You should check the ring gap to make sure it's right, but there is no filing on the ends to make them fit. Note the same rings fit all the different alpha sizes (from Pro-x anyway), so ring gap isn't as big a deal as piston-to-cylinder fit. Filing the ring ends will interfere with the fit of the ring to the locating pin in the piston ring land.

re: wrong terminology sometimes

Yeah. That drives me nuts. It's hard enough understanding some things some times..when the words get swapped around in a blender..who knows what's going on.

...not that I haven't done it myself. I try not to....at least TRY to pay some attention. The radial play debacle was certainly another example of unnecessary confusion caused by babbling without thinking. We've generally become too politically correct, won't call a spade a spade no matter how much of spade it obviously is. You said, 'I technically disagree...' How about you are right and he wasn't? No disagreement, he's just wrong.

Good luck. It'll work out just fine. You might have to learn something in the process...but THAT'S a good thing!

All of us should have that experience often.

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KIPS cleaning & cylinder honing

KIPS cleaning & cylinder honing