transmission output shaft

Got questions? We got answers....
User avatar
Indawoods
Creator and Founder
Creator and Founder
Posts: 9951
Joined: 09:59 am Jun 12 2003
Country:
Location: Midwest

Post by Indawoods » 01:07 pm Jun 29 2008

Alice's Resturant! :supz:
*** Administrator //***
****'95 KDX 200/****

"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "

User avatar
kawagumby
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 916
Joined: 10:09 am Nov 30 2006
Country:
Location: California

Post by kawagumby » 01:15 pm Jun 29 2008

CC, the O-ring is there only to keep oil from migrating out by way of the sprocket splines. The collar end is relieved to accomodate the O-ring. In all honesty, I've never seen a two O-ring setup on any of my KDX's from 84 on up, or on any other bike I've owned.

If you have oil leaking at the countershaft sprocket area, it can be the O-ring, the seal or both. Leaks due to the O-ring will be centered at the end of the collar rather than the perimeter, as in the case of a seal failure. You probably know this stuff anyway, so I'm just sticking it out for some readers who may not be familiar with the issue.

BTW, the impression I got was that crf_kdx stuck an O-ring against the inside surface of the countershaft bearing, which would do virtually nothing, good or bad. I may not be interpreting this right, tho.
1994 KDX200, Beta 200rr, yz125, yz250, kx100 modded for adult, gasgas contact 250.

User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6941
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country:
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr » 03:30 pm Jun 29 2008

Re: 'BTW, the impression I got was that crf_kdx stuck an O-ring against the inside surface of the countershaft bearing, which would do virtually nothing, good or bad. I may not be interpreting this right, tho.'

That's part of my persnickitiness over it all.............I would rather understand correctly than interpret INcorrectly.

Re: 'the O-ring is there only to keep oil from migrating out by way of the sprocket splines.'

Understood.

But...if the collar is relieved for the thickness of TWO orings, I'd much rather there BE two than one.

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!

User avatar
kawagumby
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 916
Joined: 10:09 am Nov 30 2006
Country:
Location: California

Post by kawagumby » 06:36 pm Jun 29 2008

Well, since the proof is in the leaking... it's sure easy enough to check the O-ring installation either way. However, a quick check of my 86-88 KDX parts book (nearly identical basic bottom end as the newer models BTW), my 86 KX250 parts book, my 99-01 KX250 service manual, my 08 KLR service manual and my 04 CRF250F service manual ALL show a single O-ring....I'd rethink the two O-ring scenario. I've worked on a lot of machinery, aircraft, boats, motorcycles...I've never seen two O-rings crammed together to make a seal. Not saying it isn't possible, but....it isn't too likely.
1994 KDX200, Beta 200rr, yz125, yz250, kx100 modded for adult, gasgas contact 250.

crf_kdx
Member
Posts: 106
Joined: 08:52 pm Aug 15 2005
Country:
Location: Richmond, KY
Contact:

Post by crf_kdx » 10:47 pm Jun 29 2008

Sorry if I didn't explain things well. The "micro-fiche" at

http://www.motosport.com/offroad/oem.ph ... upId=20692

might be helpful to view here. My current set-up is as follows on the transmission output shaft (from outside/left to inside/right):
1) sprocket snap ring (92033)
2) sprocket
3) collar (92143)
4) old o-ring (92055)
5) new o-ring (92055)
6) bearing (601A)

This is also as per Jim's postings.

7) new o-ring (92055) between the bearing (601A) and the "lip" shown between the two sets of splines on the output shaft. This o-ring is inside the left engine case and cannot be accessed without splitting the cases. What the picture doesn't show is a small groove on the bearing side of that lip that the o-ring fit into so nicely - just like it was made to hold it! Of course, given Jim's posting this o-ring is not suppose to be there whether it fit nicely or not. Sigh!!

I gotta confess I still don't grasp why this set-up calls for two adjacent o-rings between the collar and the bearing. With three o-rings on the CS I had *minor* issues getting the snap ring on to hold the sprocket. At the next sprocket/chain swap I may remove one of the two adjacent o-rings to allow the snapring to go on more smoothly.

I rode the girl fairly hard (at least as hard as this old man rides these days) this afternoon in a hare-scramble without any obvious woes (clean, crisp shifts and no oil leaks).

Again, I greatly appreciate *all* the input on this thread!! As I said earlier, I've received a bit of an education here and education is rarely free!! :-)
"There are two kinds of adventurers: those who go truly hoping to find adventure and those who go secretly hoping they won't."
~ William Trogdon

2002 Honda Shadow ACE 750
2005 KDX 200 (mine)
2006 CRF 250X (son's)

2004 TTR 125LE (for sale)

KORHS Series: Senior C

User avatar
Jeb
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1894
Joined: 08:01 pm Jul 14 2006
Country:
Location: Cincinnati / Northern Kentucky

Post by Jeb » 11:57 am Jun 30 2008

Kirk - Were you suggesting that there's a third oring? I was trying to locate the "new" oring between the bearing 601A and the "lip". Are you referring to something that looks like an o-ring or is there a third o-ring somewhere?

Just to muddy the water a bit, I've looked through other description/pictures in the online manual and for some odd reason they show an oring on the end of the output shaft with the transmission in various states of disassembly & reassembly. For example, look at what appears to be an oring at the end of the output shaft in this picture with the transmission removed:
Image

Now, why in the world would they do that?! They go on to state, "Replace the orings [note plural context] at the end of the output shaft before reassembly." Huh? Surely the intent is that the "old" orings get replaced. But wait! The next picture shows the cases being tapped together . . . with an oring (or two?) on the end of the output shaft. Same oring(s)? If so, they had to remove the orings (right?) before sliding the cases together . . . why put the oring(s) back afterwards for the picture?
Image
"No farmer ever plowed a field by turning it over in his mind" -George E. Woodbury

CLICK FOR PICS!

crf_kdx
Member
Posts: 106
Joined: 08:52 pm Aug 15 2005
Country:
Location: Richmond, KY
Contact:

Post by crf_kdx » 12:27 pm Jun 30 2008

Yup - I unfortunately have THREE o-rings on the output shaft instead of TWO. While the micro-fiche seems to suggest that the two o-rings are indeed adjacent to each other that didn't make sense to me last Friday morning when I put the cases back together and so I put one on either side to the left output shaft bearing. As your posting Friday night shows - my instincts here were just plain *wrong* with respect to the proper placement of the o-rings.

Btw, in your first picture immediately above this you can "see" the groove I thought the o-ring fit into on the sprocket side of the lip. I guess my thinking now is that I'll leave the third o-ring in place until I do the top end next time . . . unless someone has a compelling reason for me to do it sooner (like I'll do major damage to my KDX). I'm mindful the third o-ring shouldn't be there and I've screwed up here . . . but given the level of work to correct the mistake against my perceived potential damage to the engine/transmission I'm going to hold off on the the fix.

I hope my public mistake here might at least serve to save others from the same woe when they go to split their engine cases. (As I stated earlier - I HATE being STUPID!)
"There are two kinds of adventurers: those who go truly hoping to find adventure and those who go secretly hoping they won't."
~ William Trogdon

2002 Honda Shadow ACE 750
2005 KDX 200 (mine)
2006 CRF 250X (son's)

2004 TTR 125LE (for sale)

KORHS Series: Senior C

User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6941
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country:
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr » 12:33 pm Jun 30 2008

Good grief.

I will never unnerstan this....

In the top pic, it looks like an oring alright...but it seems to be sitting in the groove for the sprocket clip.

Shirley, this can't be that difficult. I understand why the orings are there, what they do, why the collar is there, what it does, how it all fits together, but the explanations of it all just scramble the basic, simple, obvious facts, it seems.

...like that oring on the end of the OS in the pics. Yeah...what's IT doing there?

Maybe it's a guard to make sure the seal doesn't snick on the retaining clip groove?

Seems a bit of tape would work much better.........

BTW...any idea of an oring 'between' the bearing and the 'lip' makes no sense to me at all. Those are too different diameters, and that means no oring is going to be 'between' them, as I see it. A oring that fits on the shaft is going to be smaller in diameter than the inside race of the bearing (which fits over the collar). I don't see that as a 'between' at all. The one (bearing) kind'a fits more 'over' the orings..as they are placed in a groove (recess..slot..whatever) in the collar which is INSIDE the bearing race.


Ha! I guess that would put them 'between' in a radial sense, but not a left-to-right between sense...as in there are two 'B's between two 'A's in ABBA.

Not in:

A
B
B
A

..though.


:wink:

Edit after crf's post:

I LIKE other people being stupid...if it gives me a chance to not do the same thing myself!!

Like I said...Learnin' is good!

Thanks for the opportunity!!
Last edited by canyncarvr on 12:38 pm Jun 30 2008, edited 1 time in total.

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!

User avatar
kawagumby
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 916
Joined: 10:09 am Nov 30 2006
Country:
Location: California

Post by kawagumby » 12:35 pm Jun 30 2008

The O-rings on the shafts are just temporarily there to keep parts from accidentally sliding off the shaft during assembly.
1994 KDX200, Beta 200rr, yz125, yz250, kx100 modded for adult, gasgas contact 250.

User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6941
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country:
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr » 12:41 pm Jun 30 2008

>|<>QBB<
kawagumby wrote:The O-rings on the shafts are just temporarily there to keep parts from accidentally sliding off the shaft during assembly.
There isn't anything ON the OS to come off at the point of assembly pictured. And...if they have the seal in the case already, it IS going to be a problem getting the oring past the seal lip...or the seal past the oring, either way you look at it.

Still...keeping things in order with an oring is a valid point. Kind'a like stringing some wire, a clip of some sort through a shim stack.

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!

User avatar
kdxquebec
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 1255
Joined: 07:18 am Nov 24 2004
Country:
Location: Québec:North Pole
Contact:

Post by kdxquebec » 03:26 pm Jul 13 2008

Mine also begin to wear slowly...

Image
'89 KDX 198cc '03 Gasgas Ec250 '13 Husaberg Te300
*CANADA* LEADING THE WORLD IN BEING JUST NORTH OF THE UNITED STATES.
Image

crf_kdx
Member
Posts: 106
Joined: 08:52 pm Aug 15 2005
Country:
Location: Richmond, KY
Contact:

Post by crf_kdx » 04:56 pm Jul 13 2008

Dang - sorry to hear I'm not alone with this woe!! In hindsight the task of replacing the shaft wasn't all that bad . . . and I now know where the TWO bloody o-rings are suppose to go. :-) Give me a yell when you get around to changing it . . . my experience is that these critters go slowly and so you got some time to just watch it if you're so inclined. Btw, the two tools mentioned above in this thread from RMMC really made the task of case splitting and pressing it back together a relatively easy, worry-free task!!
"There are two kinds of adventurers: those who go truly hoping to find adventure and those who go secretly hoping they won't."
~ William Trogdon

2002 Honda Shadow ACE 750
2005 KDX 200 (mine)
2006 CRF 250X (son's)

2004 TTR 125LE (for sale)

KORHS Series: Senior C

User avatar
kdxquebec
Supporting Member II
Supporting Member II
Posts: 1255
Joined: 07:18 am Nov 24 2004
Country:
Location: Québec:North Pole
Contact:

Post by kdxquebec » 11:13 pm Jul 13 2008

Hi!

I am not going to replace the shaft. The ''wear'' is there for a few years now... Since the bike is 20 years old, maybe it will take an other 20years to break the splines! (I hope!) I am pretty sure many of us have this kind of grooves...
'89 KDX 198cc '03 Gasgas Ec250 '13 Husaberg Te300
*CANADA* LEADING THE WORLD IN BEING JUST NORTH OF THE UNITED STATES.
Image

plb
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 07:59 am Aug 24 2007
Country:
Location: Québec, Canada

Post by plb » 10:18 am Feb 03 2009

My main shaft shows some wear:(

I will post pictures soon.

Maybe just the 1/5 is gone, but it's the proof that it happens with the time. My shaft is rounded, not perfectly cut in half like CRFKDX. Maybe the previous owner of the CRFKDX did a special mod?

plb
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 07:59 am Aug 24 2007
Country:
Location: Québec, Canada

Post by plb » 09:13 am Feb 04 2009

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6941
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country:
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr » 12:52 pm Feb 04 2009

This thread having been resurrected from the dead, here's a response of the same nature:

Take any CSS other than Rethnal (sic) (I've only used 3-4 brands, not every brand I'm sure...so sue me), and they will slop around on the shaft like a bad fit.

Oh. That's 'cuz they ARE a bad fit!!

Use a better sprocket and I'll bet'cha that won't happen on the next shaft.

Of course...I may be wrong.

So...sue me for that, too! :roll:

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!

User avatar
Indawoods
Creator and Founder
Creator and Founder
Posts: 9951
Joined: 09:59 am Jun 12 2003
Country:
Location: Midwest

Post by Indawoods » 01:53 pm Feb 04 2009

Your not wrong CC... countershaft sprockets should be of the highest quality... Renthal is the only one I trust for it.
*** Administrator //***
****'95 KDX 200/****

"People ate cows a thousand years ago for the same reason we eat them now. Cause they are easy to catch.We're not savages,we're just lazy. A cheetah could taste like chocolate heroin. But will never know. Those bastards are fast!!! "

plb
Member
Posts: 162
Joined: 07:59 am Aug 24 2007
Country:
Location: Québec, Canada

Post by plb » 09:29 am Dec 15 2009

The use/wear in the shaft sprocket starts 2 year ago.
I posted pictures of 2008 here in the top of the page.
After 1500km in summer 2009, it looks like that.
I rode in the beginning of December in the snow and now it's time to stop. Good news, the main shaft sprocket tought until the end.

I think I will open the case and put new crankshat bearings and put a new sproket shaft.

Other advices to change something (during the case will be split)?

Image

Image

Image

User avatar
canyncarvr
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 6941
Joined: 01:07 pm Nov 05 2004
Country:
Location: The Mythical State of Jefferson

Post by canyncarvr » 11:22 am Dec 15 2009

That's a mess!

It's an easy argument to make that while it's apart you might as well replace all the bearings in there.

There's a needle bearing on the left side of case..the 92046 on the trans shaft that's been found by a number of riders to be a problem. Having read the problems of others, I'd for sure replace that one.

Good luck!

Consider the source
Using a perceived level of knowledge to boost my self worth.
Non impediti ratione cogitationis

bike profile: !clicky!

User avatar
Colorado Mike
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1921
Joined: 11:42 am Feb 25 2005
Country:
Location: Colorado

Post by Colorado Mike » 11:30 am Dec 15 2009

yeowch!! $103.00 for that shaft?? I better get me a good CS sprocket.
Mike

Life's tough, it's even tougher if you're stupid.
'04 KDX220

Post Reply