KDX 220: Rev vs Torque Pipe. A case study
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- scheckaet
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02 KX 200 hybrid: RB head and carb
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Sorry to dig this thread up but was any more testing done to compare the PCII to the Gnarly Rev pipe? I've got a rev pipe on my mostly stock (motor-wise) 220, was there when I bought the bike in late '04. The description of the PCII's type of power has me really curious is to how my 220 would react.
I'm real close to performing a $200-$250 experiment. If so I'll see if any of the local shops with dynos will run bikes and get some real numbers for others. Somebody talk me out of it and tell me what a POS the PCII is.
I'm real close to performing a $200-$250 experiment. If so I'll see if any of the local shops with dynos will run bikes and get some real numbers for others. Somebody talk me out of it and tell me what a POS the PCII is.
- 2001kdx
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I believe the PC2 is more of a torque & bottom end pipe.
They way I've always senn it, the fmf pipes went like this:
FMF Rev = 85% Upper Mid and High gains, 15% lower rpm gains. The opposite for the woods pipe.
Then My impressions of the Pro Circuit equivalents were closer to 50/50 I.E the PC2 being more like 70% Low-mid and 30% mid-high.
PC's have always been more of an overall power gain.
They way I've always senn it, the fmf pipes went like this:
FMF Rev = 85% Upper Mid and High gains, 15% lower rpm gains. The opposite for the woods pipe.
Then My impressions of the Pro Circuit equivalents were closer to 50/50 I.E the PC2 being more like 70% Low-mid and 30% mid-high.
PC's have always been more of an overall power gain.
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the big deal here is comparing the pc2 to the fmf. the pc2 is the new tech pipe and the platinum 1 is not made anymore. pc did their homework and the pc platinum2 is the answer! I have had the fmf woods, desert, platinum and platinum2. the platinum has a little better top end but the platinum2 is the best balance!
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personally for me I have not tried a pcII but the rev pipe on my 220 woke it right up. as someone said before without the carb adjusted fairly perfect it does not perform as well on the bottom end. with the pipe you lose some low end response but the power is still there and everything thing above a extreme low end has good power. I am running the stock motor stock carb, I have a vfIII with rev pipe and turbine core II silencer my bike feels like it has 150% the power it did over stock. It will be interesting to see what rb carb mod and head mod does to the 220 along with these mods since ron is just right across the river from me I can take it directly to him and he can put in a dek needle and do the head and carb at the same time. and I will finally put in the weisco piston as I have not yet and I know that I need to. good thread guys. and It is good to be back!
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- Jeb
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If you liked what the rev pipe did for you, you're gonna enjoy the benefits of Ron's modifications to your 220. I went even a little further and had an extra head I picked up on ebay modified for race gas. All told, it's a different motor . . . and it's all good!!the trail rider wrote:personally for me I have not tried a pcII but the rev pipe on my 220 woke it right up. as someone said before without the carb adjusted fairly perfect it does not perform as well on the bottom end. with the pipe you lose some low end response but the power is still there and everything thing above a extreme low end has good power. I am running the stock motor stock carb, I have a vfIII with rev pipe and turbine core II silencer my bike feels like it has 150% the power it did over stock. It will be interesting to see what rb carb mod and head mod does to the 220 along with these mods since ron is just right across the river from me I can take it directly to him and he can put in a dek needle and do the head and carb at the same time. and I will finally put in the weisco piston as I have not yet and I know that I need to. good thread guys. and It is good to be back!
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Since I have run three different pipes on my 03 stock 220, I think I can reinforce what I am seeing written about the PC pipe. However, I found a Pro Circuit Works pipe ($45 bucks to boot brand new), so I can't compare it to the PCII. I understand the PC Works pipe runs more like a hybrid of the rev pipe and the PCII. When comparing it to the FMF rev pipe, I can do more with the PC pipe. It's just a blast to ride with that pipe. However hard I twist the throttle is exactly what it produces. The FMF pipe makes a lot of noise, and I can wring out the gears, but I don't find the bike rips any more with it all around. Also, it also does not seem to hook up as well. Plus, it seemed to spooge excessively with the FMF pipe. I rode today with Amsoil in the tank for the first time, and between that and the Works pipe, it was a little scary. I could go up a hill as slow as I wanted, or just blast off the top like a KX250. I'm second guessing if I need to be RB'd. How fast is fast enough, and it pushes the KDX's suspension to the limit. As far as the stock pipe, either pipe is an improvement in jetting and performance over stock. I found it unpredictable. However, it ran much better with the jetting on the lean side. I run that same jetting now, CEK 2nd from top, 142/40. Pick up an older PC pipe if you can find one left at a dealer or on e-bay. Just don't look for my pipe to be listed there, that's for sure. The FMF pipe with a total of one hour will most likely be sold as the loser of this test. My only negative about the PC Works pipe is that I have to short shift alot. Any recommendations for gearing changes to solve that problem?
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«Come on now, keeping that rev will teach you clutch control and make you better.»
Yes, I agree.
I rode 2 years my 220 with a Woods pipe in heavy section at low speed (rocks, trees, woods, hard hills to climb) and since I have my Rev, it's hard to ride so easily (the Woods is like an autoclutch... you never stall, the motor never dead, is always alive).
BUT, I have so much Top End and so much punch with the Rev, I have to be a better rider in slow-speed with the Rev, BUT I have an upgrade (top rev) that I NEVER have with the Woods.
KDX220 FMF =
Beginner and intermediate rider = Woods/Torque
Intermediate an pro rider = Desert/Rev
For Pro Circuit, I don't know... never try. A friend saids it gives a little of everything (bottom, mid-range and top).
Yes, I agree.
I rode 2 years my 220 with a Woods pipe in heavy section at low speed (rocks, trees, woods, hard hills to climb) and since I have my Rev, it's hard to ride so easily (the Woods is like an autoclutch... you never stall, the motor never dead, is always alive).
BUT, I have so much Top End and so much punch with the Rev, I have to be a better rider in slow-speed with the Rev, BUT I have an upgrade (top rev) that I NEVER have with the Woods.
KDX220 FMF =
Beginner and intermediate rider = Woods/Torque
Intermediate an pro rider = Desert/Rev
For Pro Circuit, I don't know... never try. A friend saids it gives a little of everything (bottom, mid-range and top).
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Yep, it is all about where you ride, but I have a feeling the PC Works pipe
is a little different than the FMF Woods pipe or PCII. I love the throttle
control I have, and it seems to be the best of both worlds. Like I said,
the only drawback is that it produces power so quickly, that I run out of
gear before I am ready to shift. I don't have the skill to shift when I am
trying to keep my butt from hitting the ground. In fact, I never saw my
fender in front of my face nearly as much with the rev pipe. This thing
pulls the front end like a MX bike. It's got that much zip and pull. Trust
me, find one of these PCI or Works pipes and give it a try, you won't be
disappointed. I have read very few threads of anyone using a Works
pipe. In fact, it's the only one I have seen in a bike shop, and it does not
hurt that I only paid $45 for a new one. For that price, I could not resist
giving it a try, glad I did. For the record, it fits my power core II better
than the rev pipe did.[/img]
is a little different than the FMF Woods pipe or PCII. I love the throttle
control I have, and it seems to be the best of both worlds. Like I said,
the only drawback is that it produces power so quickly, that I run out of
gear before I am ready to shift. I don't have the skill to shift when I am
trying to keep my butt from hitting the ground. In fact, I never saw my
fender in front of my face nearly as much with the rev pipe. This thing
pulls the front end like a MX bike. It's got that much zip and pull. Trust
me, find one of these PCI or Works pipes and give it a try, you won't be
disappointed. I have read very few threads of anyone using a Works
pipe. In fact, it's the only one I have seen in a bike shop, and it does not
hurt that I only paid $45 for a new one. For that price, I could not resist
giving it a try, glad I did. For the record, it fits my power core II better
than the rev pipe did.[/img]
- Wudscrasher
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I'll throw a curveball to y'all:
What's your final drive ratio?
It does have an affect on your impressions of 'boost', 'top speed', 'awakening', etc., so, how many teeth do you have. What y'all have said means zilch to me, as I am probably running a ratio unlike any of you, especially you open, desert guys.
For instance, '00 220R, VFIII, FMF 'Woods' pipe, FMF TCII 'Q' (for repacking/quiet purposes) on mine. 13T front, 51T rear sprocket (stock is 47). Do I have torque? , but I can also run super-tight, rocky, Colorado singletrack in 3rd & 4th gear, using 2nd rarely and 1st only to get a boost up ledges. Top speed? Try 65 mph WFO in 6th. I'll never NEED 65 miles an hour where I ride. If you should ever attempt the Red Trail or 5 Miles of Hell in Utah with your 'top-end' pipe and stock gearing, you'll burn your clutch up. The open sand washes were a dream to cruise in 6th at 45-50 mph, too! I tested for awhile to find the setup that works for ME. There's not one combination of mods/pipe/drive ratio that fits everybody. My suggestion, look at what you intend on riding, and set up accordingly. My apologies to Jeff Fredette, but I am not him, therefore, I'll stick with my Woody on my 220, because I am pleased with my setup, and I think it's perfect. YMMV, and that's OK.
-- C.J.
BTW, a louder pipe doesn't mean it's better. Keep quiet, guys. I want my kids to be able to ride in the woods someday.
What's your final drive ratio?
It does have an affect on your impressions of 'boost', 'top speed', 'awakening', etc., so, how many teeth do you have. What y'all have said means zilch to me, as I am probably running a ratio unlike any of you, especially you open, desert guys.
For instance, '00 220R, VFIII, FMF 'Woods' pipe, FMF TCII 'Q' (for repacking/quiet purposes) on mine. 13T front, 51T rear sprocket (stock is 47). Do I have torque? , but I can also run super-tight, rocky, Colorado singletrack in 3rd & 4th gear, using 2nd rarely and 1st only to get a boost up ledges. Top speed? Try 65 mph WFO in 6th. I'll never NEED 65 miles an hour where I ride. If you should ever attempt the Red Trail or 5 Miles of Hell in Utah with your 'top-end' pipe and stock gearing, you'll burn your clutch up. The open sand washes were a dream to cruise in 6th at 45-50 mph, too! I tested for awhile to find the setup that works for ME. There's not one combination of mods/pipe/drive ratio that fits everybody. My suggestion, look at what you intend on riding, and set up accordingly. My apologies to Jeff Fredette, but I am not him, therefore, I'll stick with my Woody on my 220, because I am pleased with my setup, and I think it's perfect. YMMV, and that's OK.
-- C.J.
BTW, a louder pipe doesn't mean it's better. Keep quiet, guys. I want my kids to be able to ride in the woods someday.
2000 KDX220R
"Big air? I say keep it in the dirt - that's where the fun is. You want big air, kid? Pull my finger." -- Smooth Johnson, Master of the Berm
"Big air? I say keep it in the dirt - that's where the fun is. You want big air, kid? Pull my finger." -- Smooth Johnson, Master of the Berm
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Thanks for the info Wudscrasher, I will take any advice on this subject. I feel like I have a handle on making changes to the motor as far as changing it for different weather, etc.
However, I have not tackled any changes in the drive ratio. I ride mostly hilly, rocky terrain in Missouri. Wintertime is pretty muddy. Summer is hot with a lot of hard stuff.
Like I said, I find myself shortshifting with the PC Works pipe vs. the rev pipe. It's perfect in everyother way, except this can be annoying. If I knew what each change in the sprocket made, I'm sure I could dial it in like I have with the motor and carb. My mind seems to reason well when it comes to anything mechanical. I obviously don't want to go out and buy five different combos to gain something I'm not sure I will gain.
However, I have not tackled any changes in the drive ratio. I ride mostly hilly, rocky terrain in Missouri. Wintertime is pretty muddy. Summer is hot with a lot of hard stuff.
Like I said, I find myself shortshifting with the PC Works pipe vs. the rev pipe. It's perfect in everyother way, except this can be annoying. If I knew what each change in the sprocket made, I'm sure I could dial it in like I have with the motor and carb. My mind seems to reason well when it comes to anything mechanical. I obviously don't want to go out and buy five different combos to gain something I'm not sure I will gain.
- Jeb
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You mentioned you wanted to gear differently to eliminate short-shifting . . .bmase wrote: . . . My mind seems to reason well when it comes to anything mechanical. I obviously don't want to go out and buy five different combos to gain something I'm not sure I will gain . . .
Why not start out with a 14-tooth C/S? Even for an expensive unit you're talking less than $20, half that if you go with a cheaper brand. You can change things based on what you perceive your gain was/wasn't and minimize your cost and time (meaning that you change your rear sprocket one time as well, but you'll have an idea what to get). 'Shouldn't take five different combos since you're mechanically inclined. I'm not mechanically-inclined, but after changing to a 12t sprocket (I wanted to gear shorter like Woodscrasher) I decided to get a 45-tooth rear based on saddle time and Indawoods' handy-dandy ratio chart. (Look under Drive Ratio forum, self-explanatory).
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im definatly in wudzcrushers sitch....Ive goit 52 rear and 13 front...stock pipe for now....My top speed is horrid now...its like i dont have 5 and 6th gears for top end no more...mind you my torque is over the top, and the bike rules the holeshot nooooo problem what so ever.
Anyhow...i was wpondering, if i put a Gnarly rev on, and mabye a powercoreII, would taht bring my top end up to what it was before the 52 tooth reaer sprocket? And thus would i keep the bottom end???
If thats the case then ill have a tractor for a bike!!! lol
And on top of all this....how much of a loud and sound change does the pipe give the bike...i want it to sound like a 2 stroke MX bike...not an ACTUAL tractor...
Thanx ya'll!
Anyhow...i was wpondering, if i put a Gnarly rev on, and mabye a powercoreII, would taht bring my top end up to what it was before the 52 tooth reaer sprocket? And thus would i keep the bottom end???
If thats the case then ill have a tractor for a bike!!! lol
And on top of all this....how much of a loud and sound change does the pipe give the bike...i want it to sound like a 2 stroke MX bike...not an ACTUAL tractor...
Thanx ya'll!
Live to Ride, Ride to live!!!