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I've been newly motivated to lose another 25 pounds and get down to my fighting weight of 170. I'll be in the market for a bike next summer and had been considering the KTM 300 XC-W or even a GasGas EC 300 (if I could even find one). I've recently had rides on KTM 250s and 300s. Both allowed me, nay, begged me, double-nay, made me go faster over rocks and other impediments. Fun bikes. I haven't had any opportunity to ride a 200 yet.

I'm sure I'd be happy with a KTM/GG 250 or 300, but I'm wondering about the 200 (probably an '07 or '08 XC-W). How does the power and torque of the li'l KTM compare to the stock KDX 200/220 as well as my "Dangerously Modified" (tm) 220 with head, carb, VF3 reeds, and pipes (both PCII and FMF Rev)?

I'm sure the KTM 200 would be a ball when the elevation doesn't change too much, but the reason I was considering the 300 (when I weighed 200 pounds) was for our occasional long and rocky (not necessarily horribly steep) hill climbs.

My current KDX (and me on it), can handle almost all of what Arizona can offer in the way of hills, so with the KTM's increase in power, I'm under the assumption that there won't be much of a problem.

Comments?

Thanks,

Rick

The 200 will make you fell like you're really flying in comparison to the 250/300 but in reality, you're just riding more agressively and using higher RPM's. The 250/300 will move you at least just as fast and will have the monstrous torque to pull you around when you're tired.

If I had a guess, I'd say the 200XC would put out about the same low end torque as most KDX's, then it takes off in the mid range and revs out on top better too.

Surefire way to solve this problem? Ride a KTM 200.

A while ago Dirt Bike magazine did a four page comparison between the two bikes. The KDX 200 had fredette porting, and FMF torque pipe, a gold-valved front end, and revalved rear shock. The KTM200 was stock. Here are some quotes:

"Which one was faster? The KTM.... Whick one is lighter? The KTM (10 lbs BTW). Which has better suspension? The KTM. Ah, but which one is friendlier? That's another matter."

re: the KTM; " If we wanted to go trail riding it will get the job done. To tell the truth though, we would rather borrow the girlfriend's KDX - and just say the KTM is in the shop."



A KTM 200 rider I talked to recently sold his KDX200 and bought the KTM 200 EXC and complained that the new bike did not have the low rpm torque of the KDX. He said he liked his old bike better.

The Dirt Bike article said the KTM excelled in over third gear situations, while the KDX was a better bike for the third and under speeds.

I have been on the KTM 200 and feel the USD/engine-modified KDX is a superior do it all bike, and is much more fun to ride. I thought about buying a KTM (I was just off a CRF250X) and took a gamble on modifying a KDX instead. I'm glad that I did.

A similar choice would be a CRF250X, IMO. The suspension of dreams and can handle higher speeds better than a modified KDX (longer wheelbase on the CRF) but handles low speeds good too. The downside is the engine is a .... is a ..... you know, like a lawnmower with those valve thingies and it weighs about 10 lbs more than the KDX (although you don't notice it while riding unless you deflect off of things).

Stick with the KDX or get the 300 - might as well go for the gusto and get the ballsy version. Betcha what you would get with the 200 or even the 250 wouldn't make up for what you would lose dumping that 220.

The 300 is an old mans bike, it's perfect for you! Besides, riding a 300 puts you in the Open bike class, there's no competition! Who would want that?

Personally I would take the 250 over the 300 because it's a faster revving engine and for me more fun to ride. I've ridden 200s before and they are cool, fast as hell but require you to be really riding to make it go. It's similar to a 125 but lots more torque. You have to remember though, that I don't really like to put around at Rick Speed. Ok?

Funny thing is since I've gotten my 450 I haven't looked back. It's more fun to ride, faster, better suspension, turning and easier to ride. I haven't thought about riding the KDX for anything other than a commuter since my CRF arrived. Valves kind of suck but oh well, it's worth it IMO.

Thank you, theIncredibleBleaknessOfBeing. To tell you the truth, I never utilized the full rev potential of the 250XC. I was short-shifting it. Still way more revs than the KDX, but short-shifting nontheless.

It will be a slight challenge to get a ride on a late-year 200. The common variety of KTM is the 300. Before anyone says, "That should tell you something," there are more 4-strokes around here as well.

There are issues with the 300 XC-W (e-start only). The 200 is 209 pounds. The 250 XC-W and 300XC-W is 224 (both dry).

The jetting on the 300 can be difficult to bracket, and I'm unaware of addressing the overheating issue that some have had.

The one thing that I'm sure I'd lose over the KDX with the 250 (and most likely the 200) is the ability to puttitah-puttitah up modest slopes. Folks I ride with still get that puzzled look when I'm cruising around just off-idle.

Point of clarification -- I was riding in Flagstaff at 7,000 feet with a group of fellow Phoenix riders.

The reason I was riding the 250XC more aggressively (and the 250 SX redone for rocks) was that I *could*. Even though folks say that the linkless KTM swing arm has trouble, it felt very well behaved working behind me as I blasted through a rocky trail. It was as if I could tell what the suspension was doing, and what it felt like it was doing was tracking straight compressing going over the rock and then nicely rebounding and getting the meat of the tire back on the ground. Very confidence-inspiring.

When I say the bike made me go faster, it like the same sensation that I get when I'm running downhill. I don't have to stride out, but I do, knowing that that gravity will take over. Kinda silly not to take advantage of that. So, with the KTMs, I'm inclined to twist the throttle more.

As I did so, the KTM didn't seem to approach its limit. Once back on the KDX, I still had the inclination to go faster, and I tried, but it was as if I was trying to wring the last drops of water out of a damp dish towel. I was going fast over rocks but the law of decreasing returns hit pretty soon.

Not only was I faster on the KTM, I was less tired. Much of my riding on the KDX (when I try to go fast) is tied up with (I now know), fighting the suspension. My thighs are working harder, and so are my hands. When I rode the KDX, I was shaking the cramps out of my hands (usually the throttle hand). The half-hour I spent on the KTM, not once did I have a hand cramp.

Pretty telling.

Rick

I rode a modified (pipe, modified a/box, CRF450R needle, jetting, smog gear disabled, pink wire mod, etc) 07 CRF450X and a stock 07 KX450F (20miles old) yesterday and couldn't wait to get back on the KDX. I am just not a 4T kinda guy, AT ALL.... They are admitedly fun, for about 20 seconds but I'd hate to have to ride one all the time.

I have heard the 08 KTM200s are going to be around the 90kg mark so I would try and get a ride on an 08 if you can even swing that. Failing that I would go the Gasser 300, very narce ride...

The GG300 would be nice (my first choice), especially with Ohlins front and rear. But they've *just* lost their US distributor. What is that, the third in five years? If I can stumble upon some random '07 GG that might be in someone's shop, I'll consider it. But the odds are against it.

I've also borrowed a fair share of 450 4Ts. Didn't like 'em.

Rick

thebleakness wrote:The 300 is an old mans bike . . .

Yeah, us old men like it all - putt-around down low and that savage BOOM on top, all in one package . . .

Jeb, I finally know what you're talking about - rode an RM250 today. That boom is an aquired taste

Jeb wrote:

thebleakness wrote:The 300 is an old mans bike . . .

Yeah, us old men like it all - putt-around down low and that savage BOOM on top, all in one package . . .

It's an inside joke, Rick should know what I'm talking about (I think you were on that ride?).

I've ridden the 250SX modified for rocks he was talking about. He's a friend of mine and that is one sick machine. Too bad I can't afford a 2007 bike... My buddy just picked up a 2008 250XC and we were lusting over it this afternoon, the new bikes are beautiful! I can't wait to ride that thing.

THe 250 does a good job of putting around. On inda's old one I swear it would lug to the point of firing only about 2 times per second. The 36mm carb off the 300 surely helps contribute to it's very friendly low-rpm functionality. A 36mm RB modded PWK on a 250 would probably be short of phenonimal off-idle.

I think it is tough to compare a KDX to almost any other more modern bike, especially a KTM 200, probably its closest cousin in power and intent.
Two of my buddies ride KTM 200's. We've swapped back and forth. They both say the power is pretty similar, certainly not inadequite on the KDX (RB head and carb), more tractable on the KDX. The KTM was pretty peaky, to me.

In the handling and suspension department is where there is really a difference. Everyone who rode mine said the power was fine, but it was a bit scary in third tapped and above. I found the KTM to be very stable and accurate but the ride a bit harsh and twitchy.

Put the two bikes next to each other and start comparing the sizes of such things as triple trees, axle diameter, swingarm box section, etc.

The KTM is a race bike and the KDX is a trail bike, no way around it. The KDX is better for plunking around, the KTM is better for going faster than a fella should between the trees.

If I HAVE to get a new bike I'll try for a GG300 first, GG250 second, and one of the KTM 2ST third.
I'd keep the KDX. I've never met anyone who said "I used to have one of them KDX's. Glad I got rid of it!"

Rick, just out of curiosity have you replaced the front forks on your KDX with USD's?

Just wondering, cause my units made the bike one I could push much much harder with complete confidence - I don't feel the suspension on mine is a limitation at all, but the short wheelbase is - and that is what limits the higher speeds on the KDX for me.

kawagumby wrote:Rick, just out of curiosity have you replaced the front forks on your KDX with USD's?

I put on '98 KX250 forks in October of 2006. It allowed me to skim over moderate whoops, for example.

KarlP is quite correct (about the GG, too). There are limitations to comparing the orange and green bikes. But I look at it less as comparing and more of getting data points to replace it. If I can get a hard 30-minutes of riding that'll tell me all I need. But around here, the 300 is King and the 200 is considered a "chick bike."

Speaking of comparisons, what can R-B Designs (carb and head) and Clay (head) mods do to the power and behavior of the li'l KTM 200 motor?

ETA: Assuming 91 Octane (Arizona premium) pump gas.

Rick

From what i've read the Clay head mods really help the KTM 200hunny in the jetting consistency department. I'd imagine that RB could take care of you as well. I've always been a little interested on how a RB'd carby would work on a KTM 200 since they do not have nearly the off idle grunt that a KDX 200 or 220 has.

I do the head mod for the KTM 200 and carb work as well.

I would like to ride one done up like that.

Ron e-mailed me and said that his head work would give it more in the low to mid revs as well as make the jetting easier to deal with (I'd like to know the theory behind the jetting fix).

What I'd like to know is how much it improves it? Does it move it into the realm of modded KDX220 low-end? Does the mid-range improve to somewhere in between a stock 200 and a 250? 30%? 70%?

And what about that carb mod? What is done to the carb and what does that do to performance?

Rick

I think you think to much. Get rid of all your power worries and buy a ATK 700 Intimidator, all the power you could ever need.