'95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Got questions? We got answers....
Post Reply
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

'95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by SS109 »

The whole electric start for the KDX interest seems to be ramping up again. I have designed a setup (about 90% complete) that uses readily available parts if anything fails other than the sprag/start gear adapters and the stator/starter housing/cover which are of my own design. Even the nuts and bolts I'm sourcing from known vendors to make replacements easy to find. This would be a fairly easy conversion (BTW, I think my setup will even work on the '89-'94 bikes as well) that almost anyone would be able to do themselves with standard tools, supplies, and little mechanical aptitude.

NOTE, this setup is considered a lossy setup as the battery will not be charged while riding unless you've already converted to a 12vdc system. You would have to charge the battery after each ride. To charge the battery while riding takes several upgrades/mods to convert to 12vdc that I'm not wanting to do as a "for sale" basis as it will add a lot to the cost and you would have to send parts to me for modification. (I guess for the right price I would do it, though) However, I can probably help with a wiring schematic, necessary mods, and parts for doing so.

Now, to the point of this post... I am now deciding on whether to pull the trigger to buy some expensive tooling to make my proof of concept. Of course, if this e-start is just for me it's just not worth the expense to invest in the tools.

So, to my questions...

1. Would you be down to buy an electric start depending on price?

2. Would you want just the basic adapters/mounts and source your own starter, switch, wiring, etc or a full kit with everything but the battery?

3. What do you think is a reasonable price for (A) just the adapters and (B) the nearly complete setup?
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
Tyl3r
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 1335
Joined: 06:51 pm Nov 26 2012
Country: USA
Location: SW Pennsylvania

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by Tyl3r »

1. Yes - what is the current ballpark price for a complete set up? In the $1k-2k range? Are talking a system that looks like the Pantera one or 2000's ktms where there is a small starter motor attached to the flywheel cover? Or one of those chain driven deals that i saw down in Brazil?

2. If youve already figured out standard parts to use for the main components, me personally, i would source those on my own and want to buy thr specialty/custom bits from you so i wouldnt have to spend all the money at once. If you dont already have a business up and running, this seems like the ideal way to do it on your end so you dont have to invest in buying all the inventory and keeping on hand, hoping it all sells. Just a thought, its a point we talk about at work a lot lol

3. Adapters like $4-500 (dont know what it all involved though?) Whole set up, would be great if it could be less than $2k, i think approaching $3k or more for anything aftermarket on these bikes will be a hard sale, but i could be wrong.

Im excited to hear more about what you have going on! Best of luck to ya!!
04/05 KX220 Hybrid all decked out
18 KTM 500 EXC-F Dual Sport/Sumo toy
24 KTM 300XC-W Cheater bike
pumpguy
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 821
Joined: 10:00 am May 29 2012
Country:
Location: Spring Grove, Illinois

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by pumpguy »

I'm certainly interested, but the devil is in the details as you and Tyl3r point out.

What about battery, how big and where to mount?
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by SS109 »

Tyl3r wrote: 06:33 am Aug 05 2022 1. Yes - what is the current ballpark price for a complete set up? In the $1k-2k range? Are talking a system that looks like the Pantera one or 2000's ktms where there is a small starter motor attached to the flywheel cover? Or one of those chain driven deals that i saw down in Brazil?

2. If youve already figured out standard parts to use for the main components, me personally, i would source those on my own and want to buy thr specialty/custom bits from you so i wouldnt have to spend all the money at once. If you dont already have a business up and running, this seems like the ideal way to do it on your end so you dont have to invest in buying all the inventory and keeping on hand, hoping it all sells. Just a thought, its a point we talk about at work a lot lol

3. Adapters like $4-500 (dont know what it all involved though?) Whole set up, would be great if it could be less than $2k, i think approaching $3k or more for anything aftermarket on these bikes will be a hard sale, but i could be wrong.

Im excited to hear more about what you have going on! Best of luck to ya!!
Keeping the cost down so that just about anyone can afford it is very important to me. Lower the cost = more I can sell to recoup my investment. I'm hoping to keep this sub $700 for the whole setup minus battery but I honestly don't know if that is realistic at this time. (metal prices are crazy high right now!) The battery I am spec'ing for it is a 7ah 240CA lithium battery for power and lightweight that should run between $130-180. Note: it might work fine with a smaller, and cheaper, 7ah 120CA battery but it wouldn't last long in a total loss system and I won't have a battery that small to test with so no guarantees!). So all in it should hopefully be, at most if I'm estimating correctly, less than $900 (not counting taxes and/or shipping) for someone to add e-start to the KDX.

The adapters are the main cost of this setup and alone might be $600-650. It would be very similar to the Brazil one that member guychriqui bought but I can't make and sell them that cheap. To make one like Panthera offers, or like most modern bikes, would get prohibitively expensive as I would have to farm out the majority of the machining work to someone with some serious CNC equipment and I would have to do some parts on an exchange basis only.

Another big criteria for designing my setup is to keep it as simple as possible and that it can literally be installed by just about anyone. The hardest part, IMO, is having to drill out the three open holes on the flywheel and then tapping them for the proper size screws. Only other possible issue is if you don't have the stock flywheel rivets, like Slick-Nick, you will have to drill the recessed holes larger in the sprag adapter to clear them. The rest is, for lack of a better term, plug-and-play.

There will be no bulky cast aluminum pieces like in the Brazil version. It also shouldn't stick out quite as far and will allow the same, or nearly so, access to the shifter as it is in stock form. The adapters will be made from 6061, 5052, A36 steel, and the cover will be made as a hammered/twill carbon fiber composite. You will have the choice to run this as a wet system with very low maintenance or a dry system which will require somewhat regular servicing for proper lubrication.

Thanks! I'm excited as well. I've been working on an e-start design for years and just couldn't find an affordable way to make it happen. When I saw pics of the one from Brazil it all clicked on how simple it can be.
pumpguy wrote: 10:16 am Aug 05 2022 I'm certainly interested, but the devil is in the details as you and Tyl3r point out.

What about battery, how big and where to mount?
Yep, details are everything and have been driving me nuts for years looking at building an e-start for our bikes. The Brazil version mounted the battery inside the air box. I'm not sure I like that as you would have to remove it for air filter maintenance. The only other options I can see is to mount it behind the headlight or in a pack/box on the rear fender. Behind the headlight should be fine as a lot of people mount steering stabilizers or wrap around handguards that weigh almost the same. The cheaper battery that I priced above, Fire Power HJTZ7S-FPP, measures 4.4375 L x 2.75 W x 4.125 H inches while the more expensive one, Antigravity AG-801, is 4.375 L x 2.37 W x 3.75 H inches. Both are rated 240CA.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
Tyl3r
Platinum Member
Platinum Member
Posts: 1335
Joined: 06:51 pm Nov 26 2012
Country: USA
Location: SW Pennsylvania

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by Tyl3r »

Wow nice, I can tell you have definitely thought about this quite a bit! Sounds pretty awesome, and that makes sense about the machined parts adding complexity. I'm excited to see how it looks.

I did the AC/DC conversion over the winter and re-wired the bike, I was surprised how simple that conversion actually was. I had been too afraid to attempt it for years, glad I did, tons of info on here to make it easy. I'm sure others would do the same if they knew how simple it was. I used one of THESE regulator rectifiers and one of THESE batteries from TrailTech (and one of their battery chargers as well). Pricing pretty reasonable if you ask me. Mounted it all to a piece of aluminum attached to the back of the a Polisport headlight. I think that mounting location is plenty strong enough to mount a battery, and more even, like you mentioned.
04/05 KX220 Hybrid all decked out
18 KTM 500 EXC-F Dual Sport/Sumo toy
24 KTM 300XC-W Cheater bike
User avatar
doakley
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1241
Joined: 02:58 pm Mar 10 2016
Country:

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by doakley »

I'm all in. My preference would be a complete kit, sans battery. But I would go with it however offered.
If I do not get e-start on my KDX, I will probably sell it! It's that valuable to me.
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by SS109 »

Tyl3r wrote: 01:17 pm Aug 05 2022 Wow nice, I can tell you have definitely thought about this quite a bit! Sounds pretty awesome, and that makes sense about the machined parts adding complexity. I'm excited to see how it looks.

I did the AC/DC conversion over the winter and re-wired the bike, I was surprised how simple that conversion actually was. I had been too afraid to attempt it for years, glad I did, tons of info on here to make it easy. I'm sure others would do the same if they knew how simple it was. I used one of THESE regulator rectifiers and one of THESE batteries from TrailTech (and one of their battery chargers as well). Pricing pretty reasonable if you ask me. Mounted it all to a piece of aluminum attached to the back of the a Polisport headlight. I think that mounting location is plenty strong enough to mount a battery, and more even, like you mentioned.
Sweet, you're already setup to have a system that charges while you ride. I'll be doing the same on mine along with running the starter system wet. I don't want to have to even really think about it after it's installed. Just hit the button and go ride!
doakley wrote: 06:55 pm Aug 05 2022 I'm all in. My preference would be a complete kit, sans battery. But I would go with it however offered.
If I do not get e-start on my KDX, I will probably sell it! It's that valuable to me.
I would hate to see you sell your bike! Just so you know, I'm full steam ahead and hopefully will have a working model within a month if not sooner.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
oldmankdx69
Member
Posts: 87
Joined: 03:38 pm Nov 17 2016
Country: US

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by oldmankdx69 »

Man does this sound super!! Wish I had kept my KDX 200 so I could mount an electric starter on it. I ended up buying a '21 KLX 300R and had to sell my KDX. I really like my KLX but miss the KDX. My right leg really likes the electric starter of the KLX but I have had to live with the added weight. Look foward to following the progress of this subject. Good luck!!!
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by SS109 »

oldmankdx69 wrote: 06:29 am Aug 08 2022 Man does this sound super!! Wish I had kept my KDX 200 so I could mount an electric starter on it. I ended up buying a '21 KLX 300R and had to sell my KDX. I really like my KLX but miss the KDX. My right leg really likes the electric starter of the KLX but I have had to live with the added weight. Look foward to following the progress of this subject. Good luck!!!
Thanks my man. Bummer about selling the KDX, though. Hopefully when I get this done you can find another one and relegate the KLX to fire roads and dual sport duty!
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
sarrant
Member
Posts: 463
Joined: 02:47 pm Aug 10 2012
Country: USA
Location: Sac, Ca

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by sarrant »

Would be tough not to buy if under $700
User avatar
billie_morini
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 187
Joined: 04:31 pm Aug 02 2020
Country: Central Coast California

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by billie_morini »

SS109,
WOW! The information you provided herein greatly interests me. Answers & comment responses to your three questions provided below.

1. Would you be down to buy an electric start depending on price?
Yes! I wish for electric start every time I ride my KDX220. My DRZ400S has “the button,” so this reinforces my wish. So does knowing my buddy’s Beta Xtrainer 200 has e-start. Some days I think about getting a Beta simply because it has e-start. This thought could be discarded with the addition of e-start on my KDX220. Coincidentally, my 1975 DT125 has factory e-start & 12V electrical system.

Appreciate that you’ve compared your concept to the e-starter designs from the clever Brazil fabrication and the commercial Panther product. You’ve indicated you’ve resolved the bulkiness inherent with the Brazil fabricator’s design. This, as well as the seemingly not-quite-adequately-robust mechanical components caused me to not get one of these e-starters. I’ve examined Panther product designs with serious consideration about making something similar. Due to persistent & never-ending employment demands, my action for something like this has to wait until I retire.

You stated your system can be run in oil bath or dry, with different maintenance requirements. I’m thinking about high quality 20W or 30W synthetic oil like Mobil 1. What oil type and weight (viscosity) are you thinking? Also, what volume may be required? The less volume, the less added weight. Don’t know if you are thinking chain or toothed belt. Once upon a time, I had several mid-1980’s Moto Morini 350 K2’s and some 500 sports. Camshafts were driven with these cool little toothed belts. Until then, I did not realize how much load narrow toothed belts can handle. Wonder if you’ve thought much about belt drive?

Before completely committing to purchase I would like to 1) know the total dry and wet weights, and 2) See photos or simplified design sheets to assure the e-stater system A) minimizes system bulk, and B) is mechanically robust for planned use.

I would like to make a minor contribution to the product development you are undertaking. I am very curious to know if the smaller 7aH 120CA battery will work. It is worth it to me to purchase one and have it delivered to you. Let me know if you are interested in this offer. Send private message through forum or email me: billie_morini AT y a h o o DOT c o m.

2. Would you want just the basic adapters/mounts and source your own starter, switch, wiring, etc or a full kit with everything but the battery?
I can go either way but would probably go for the complete kit to make it easy because my job is very time consuming. The full kit will eliminate having to think, source, select, & make multiple purchases + require greater pre-install planning time investment. I may even be interested in getting battery with kit, too. Total loss may not be a “big thing” for me. Presently, I easily live with total loss battery for the street lighting on my tagged KDX. I think the battery is 2000 mAh. Although, Tyl3r is making it easy to convert to AC with the hyperlinks above. The benefit to going in the direction Tyl3r charted is running a halogen bulb headlight like my DRZ400S has, as well as planning ahead for your e-starter.

3. What do you think is a reasonable price for (A) just the adapters and (B) the nearly complete setup?

A) Don’t know w/o figuring. WAG: $200 to $300?
B) $500 to $700, without battery (I’ll go closer to the higher end if the more robust the mechanical components are)
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by SS109 »

Wheh, a lot to unpack here and I hope I answer everything. If not please let me know.
billie_morini wrote: 11:24 pm Sep 10 2022 Appreciate that you’ve compared your concept to the e-starter designs from the clever Brazil fabrication and the commercial Panther product. You’ve indicated you’ve resolved the bulkiness inherent with the Brazil fabricator’s design. This, as well as the seemingly not-quite-adequately-robust mechanical components caused me to not get one of these e-starters. I’ve examined Panther product designs with serious consideration about making something similar. Due to persistent & never-ending employment demands, my action for something like this has to wait until I retire.
Mine will be almost exactly like that of the one from Brazil. It will still be bulkier than modern type e-starts but I think I'll have it down to where you won't notice it at all when riding which the Brazil version looks like your foot would possibly hit it at times. As for robustness, sadly, to do this somewhat affordably, relying on some imported parts is a necessity and we all know what a gamble that is nowadays. My proprietary parts will all be quality pieces made of 6061-T651, 4041 steel, and carbon fiber.
billie_morini wrote: 11:24 pm Sep 10 2022 You stated your system can be run in oil bath or dry, with different maintenance requirements. I’m thinking about high quality 20W or 30W synthetic oil like Mobil 1. What oil type and weight (viscosity) are you thinking? Also, what volume may be required? The less volume, the less added weight.
Honestly, probably any motor oil or transmission fluid would work fine. I will probably just use normal 5w-30 motor oil or maybe even ATF. It is really only there to provide some lubrication for the chain/sprockets and to the sprag/sprocket shaft that are in contact with each other while the engine is actually running. What volume still needs to be determined. I want the level just high enough that the starter chain will sling the oil around to ensure oil is distributed on all sprockets and wear surfaces.
billie_morini wrote: 11:24 pm Sep 10 2022 Don’t know if you are thinking chain or toothed belt. Once upon a time, I had several mid-1980’s Moto Morini 350 K2’s and some 500 sports. Camshafts were driven with these cool little toothed belts. Until then, I did not realize how much load narrow toothed belts can handle. Wonder if you’ve thought much about belt drive?
As mentioned above, chain driven. Belts are nice but would be cost prohibitive for me plus it would actually add more bulk to the system. I admit it would not be much but maybe 1/8 to 3/16" more stick out but I really don't want any more bulk than absolutely necessary.
billie_morini wrote: 11:24 pm Sep 10 2022 Before completely committing to purchase I would like to 1) know the total dry and wet weights, and 2) See photos or simplified design sheets to assure the e-stater system A) minimizes system bulk, and B) is mechanically robust for planned use.
1. Weights won't be known for a while but will update this thread when I know. 2. I won't be releasing any drawings/schematics of my setup. It will be very similar to the Brazilian setup only made with better materials and more attention paid to the details. I will show pics and vids of the system once I have the prototype up and running.
billie_morini wrote: 11:24 pm Sep 10 2022 I would like to make a minor contribution to the product development you are undertaking. I am very curious to know if the smaller 7aH 120CA battery will work. It is worth it to me to purchase one and have it delivered to you. Let me know if you are interested in this offer.
I do think a smaller battery would operate this e-start without issue. However, I'm designing the battery box system to hold the larger battery so it will cover those going with lossy setups.

As for the offer, yes, I would love to take you up on that but not at this time. Let me get my proof of concept (PoC) built, I'll send you some pics and vid of it, and then you can decide if you would like to make that investment at that point. Sadly, my band saw has taken a crap on me and I need to get some some stock cut down to fit in my lathe to keep moving forward. Once I do this I should be able to finish the PoC.

As for price and kits, if I source the parts for the complete kits, I will personally be testing every single component before shipping them out to make sure they are not DOA. I will be doing my best to eliminate any problems from reaching the end users.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
User avatar
billie_morini
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 187
Joined: 04:31 pm Aug 02 2020
Country: Central Coast California

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by billie_morini »

SS109,
thank you for a detailed reply. Ja, it is not necessary to see design sheets because you'll:
1) share photos & video of components & installed system, and
2) tell us about left leg / ankle / foot clearance. (this is true reason I'd asked for photos or design sheet)

I know about broken band saws, drill presses, grinders, etc. Feel your pain!
billie
guychriqui
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 01:34 pm Jul 04 2021
Country: United States

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by guychriqui »

SS109 - let me know if you want me to get you pics of any of my parts!

-Guy
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by SS109 »

guychriqui wrote: 10:31 am Sep 16 2022 SS109 - let me know if you want me to get you pics of any of my parts!

-Guy
Thanks my man! :supz:
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
Sg76
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 05:40 pm Sep 18 2022
Country: United States

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by Sg76 »

I came across this forum last week while looking for an elecric start. I tried to kick mine again & just cant do it with either leg. Im 51-Doc keeps telling me I need two new knees. Just wanted to say YES on this. I dont wanna sell my KDX.
Riding my 4 stroke quads even sucks now cause I cant get my butt up out of seat due to seating position and pressure on my knees.
User avatar
SS109
KDXRider.net
KDXRider.net
Posts: 5770
Joined: 05:11 am Aug 23 2009
Country: USA
Location: Tucson, AZ, USA
Contact:

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by SS109 »

Since you bumped the topic up I'll give a quick update. Sadly, my band saw motor took a dump and I'm looking to get that fixed this coming week. This is has been holding me up as cutting 3.25" 6061-T651 with a hack saw is just not doable IMO. So, I am still on it but delayed a bit.
Youtube Channel: WildAzzRacing
AZ State Parks & Trails OHV Ambassador - Trail Riders of Southern AZ
Current KDX: '98 KDX220
Old KDX: '90 KDX200 -White/Blue
'11 GasGas EC250R
Sg76
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: 05:40 pm Sep 18 2022
Country: United States

Re: '95-'06 (maybe '89-'94) KDX Electric Start - Gauging Interest

Post by Sg76 »

I watched your 10/8 video. Thank you for the update. AZ trails look like 100% more fun than PA--Not to mention 37 degrees this morning.
Post Reply