Cornering

[firffighter]

Any tips on cornering at speed? I've been hitting a lot of terrain where I am stuck in between 2nd and 3rd gear in a corner. I have been hitting a lot of corners hot at 3rd gear speed, but have stalled too many times when hitting the brakes.

3rd gear (kinda lugging the motor) works with fanning the clutch and you get no wheel spin, but not a ton of speed coming out of the corner.

2nd gear (powerband) works great, but you seem to loose a bit of control with the bike reving high in the powerband.

I've been working on looking through corners and keeping my elbows out as well.

[fuzzy]

Keep using the 2nd gear technique, or mod your bike so it'll pull 3rd better. Riding what you've got will probably make you better though. Keep outside peg weighted, inside foot out front. Look way ahead, and just let the bike track...Yes, it will feel a little more out of control, but if you just flew off the back you'd be suprised how far the bike will go without you on it

[Duke]

Jim Gibson, former Honda rider, MXDN team member, and operator of a riding school offered these comments about the tactic of taking the corner with a higher gear, and slipping the clutch. Basically beginners should just take the the turn one gear lower; Easier on the plates and more accomodating if you mess up. Check out pictures of riders from early 80's on, and you will see their finger off the clutch. They took the turns a gear lower, and yet managed a "brisk pace."

I do keep a finger on the clutch out of habit of negotiating technical terrain, but I generally avoid taking a turn in the same gear used in the preceeding straight.

[mudpack]

One, better to be one gear too high than one gear too low. Driving out of a corner in a higher gear may not FEEL like you are going fast, but you may be accelerationg faster than if you had lots of power going to the rear wheel, spinning, sliding, fishtailing, etc.
Don't worry about slipping the clutch at this stage; let the motor work. Clutch slipping is for those times when you are TWO gears too high!!!


Next, don't worry about your elbows and worry more about sliding forward on the seat to weight the front end. You can also use the front brake to transfer weight to the front during initial turn-in, but this is an advanced technique and if you don't feel comfortable doing it you might want to save it for later.

[KDXPhoneDude]

One, better to be one gear too high than one gear too low. Driving out of a corner in a higher gear may not FEEL like you are going fast, but you may be accelerationg faster than if you had lots of power going to the rear wheel, spinning, sliding, fishtailing, etc.
Don't worry about slipping the clutch at this stage; let the motor work. Clutch slipping is for those times when you are TWO gears too high!!!


Next, don't worry about your elbows and worry more about sliding forward on the seat to weight the front end. You can also use the front brake to transfer weight to the front during initial turn-in, but this is an advanced technique and if you don't feel comfortable doing it you might want to save it for later.

Man, that's good advice.

[Varmint]

Since the subject of this post is "Cornering", I thought this'd be the perfect spot for my question.

I too am having trouble cornering at higher speeds but my problem is a little different. I'm getting the feeling of what NASCAR drivers coin as "too tight", like the bike wont turn. It's like the momentum of the bike keeps it upright and makes it difficult to turn. This is particulary problematic when the turns are rutted and I get the front tire in a groove I don't want to be in. You can image what happens next; if you can't, the back tire takes a different route and comes around for an unexpected powerslide and get off!

Any tips (besides "slow down" ) would be appreciated.

[revodrew]

When you are going slow, and your motor is bogging, jumping isnt that in fact bad for the motor?

I was told by some experianced quad racers that you are better off riding high rpms then bogging or jumping the motor. Strictly for the motors benefit

[island220]

Concentrate on the beginning of the berm of the berm,keep your elbows up, keep your foot up and forward, dont be in a rush to give it the gas,stay up on the wall of the berm, and use the cluthch. Above all, practice your turns in a higher gear if you want to get through them faster. You build your straightaway speed in your turns, if you come out at 15 miles an houryour going to get down the straight a lot faster then the guy coming out at 10 mph,

[kawagumby]

For most tight trails or tracks, my experience is that slipping the clutch works very well in the lower three or four gears (and is usually superior to revving in a lower gear anywhere) especially if a quick fan can get the engine right on the power bubble with a little wheelspin coming out of turns. This is especially true for a wide ratio tranny like a KDX (vs a tighter spacing like an MX'r) at higher speeds in a higher gear you've got a wider spread of power that a clutch fan probably won't improve on anyway IMO. You've just need to be in the right gear in that case IMO.

Regarding a bike trying to "stand up" in higher speed cornering, you might try altering the geometry with fork height adjustments, or even alter suspension settings. But even with a well set-up bike, I know when I go into high speed turn, I often have to muscle the bike over and really gas it to make it turn - because a good part of that "standing up" is just the resistance to change in direction/attitude caused by the gyro action of the wheels at higher speeds.

[Duke]

i" The resistance to change in direction/attitude caused by the gyro action of the wheels at higher speeds."

The best tactic to overcome this is the use of counter steering. Do an engine search on the subject and you will see it as a invaluable means of initiating a turn regardless of speed

[kawagumby]

Yes.

The countersteering and leaning and throttle use will come not so much by reading about them, but by practicing turning on different surfaces. As I've said before on this forum, using countersteering in the dirt is a very different animal than using it on the street, and, IMO, it will come naturally as but one element of the complex interplay of bike manipulation that will develop with saddle time.

I think practicing flat track type turns is an excellent way to get a feel for bike cornering dynamics - the KDX is not the easiest bike for this tho' IMO, too damned short

firffighter,

Regarding stalling when hitting the brakes in a turn...you can eliminate that entirely by pulling in the clutch before entering the turn. You want to be in a gear high enough to exit in the meat of the powerband, with a little practice you will be in that gear. I usually aim for a little bit higher gear so with only a little clutch slipping it will accelerate well out of the turn.

you didn't say what kind of turn you are dealing with (rutted, flat, dry, wet, etc.) but here's the general method I've had good success with...
Haul ass in the straights to the last moment...

up barely off the saddle, legs grabbing bike at boot level (the bike can pivot through braking bumps at the footpegs) with arms loose and taking up bike movement in a relaxed manner (this is where the elbows up stuff comes in handy), start downshifting and braking hard just before the turn, the front end drops big time at this point...

Pawaaah, 4th, pawaaaah, 3rd, pull in clutch

While the front end is down, sit your arse close to the nose of the seat and coast around the first half of the turn, shifting weight, extending leg etc. as necessary to keep the front end planted (remember this is a generalization!) then once at the apex release the clutch while gassing hard and sliding back ON the saddle rear for traction. Now you've just blown by several spodes, and the guy in front of you is on the outside of the next turn... gee, I guess there's only room for one of you if you catch him...hee hee, oops, now you are alone leaving the depressed competition in the dust....

[firffighter]

Just did a 50 mile run in the woods yesterday. Most of the stuff was 2nd-3rd gear trials with lots of rocks and roots (typical NW terrain). Many of our corners are followed by uphills were you need good exit speed or a quick downshift to make it up. Or, the corners sneek up on you when you are railing along, so you have to quickly slow down.

I tried to do most of my cornering in 3rd gear and fanned the clutch when needed to get good exit speed. This worked very well and as long as I was paying attention, I never stalled or blew a corner.

Now, After 3 hrs. of riding, I got a little lazy and lost some concentration. As soon as that happened, I stalled a couple of times because I wasnt paying attention or didnt have my finger on the clutch. I also blew through one corner trying to go a little too fast and ended up in a creek

The other issue I have is that I use a Pirelli MT43 trials tire, so rolling the corners is pretty essential.

I switched bike with my cousing who rides a nicely set up XR250 and I noticed that cornering with the engine braking is like cheating! You dont have to pay attention to brakes or what gear you are in, just roll it on and away you go.

[Duke]

Without deviating too far from the subject at hand, could you offer an opinion as to how the XR250 faired?

[firffighter]

Well, I am afraid to say on this site for fear of being called a traitor or turncoat.

But, I have to say that the XR250 was "easier" to ride.

Now I should clarify that I am a "C" or slow "B" rider and not a woods racer by any means. I like to ride at a good pace and do long trail rides. Most of what I ride is 2nd-3rd gear trails with lots of twisty turns, uphills with rocks, roots, etc.

I found that I could be lazy on the XR and get away with it because of the torque. It does not require you to do a lot of shifting or braking and the engine braking really helps with cornering IMO.

I ride with my cousin and a few other guys who can fly on an XR.

It is a trade off. The KDX is lighter and you can change lines easily, but you have to stay fairly busy. The XR is heavier but lets you ride lazy.

[kawagumby]

Do you want to become a better rider or ride a lazy-boy? The XR hits a wall, performance-wise, that the KDX does not. In tough situations, which is what many of us want occasionally as part of our riding adventures, the XR will fail you when the KDX won't. (I've ridden my sisters' XR250). LOL, but yes, a small bore 4 stk is fun to play on, and is easier to ride on conservative trails. You can probably talk on a cell-phone while riding one, which is cool. Yeah, that's cool.

Blasphemy. I'm both shocked and dismayed.

[firffighter]

Funny. Good stuff.

Just curious what kind of tough situations do you think the KDX is better than a thumper? Just curious.

There reason The KDX is in my garage is not because it makes me a faster rider, but because it is more fun.

But, like I mentioned before the fun factor can wear you out after a long day in the saddle. For really long rides, a thumper can be less tiring if you let the bike do the work for you.

BTW, I dont believe in performance being the biggest factor in whether or not you are faster in the woods. Fast guys are on 2-strokes and thumpers both, and even a highly modded KDX would not be considered a performance bike by any means.

[Indawoods]

I like my KDX because it is the lazy-boy of 2 strokers! I love my comfy seat and the fact I don't have to be on the throttle all the time for fear of stalling or fouling a plug.... Not to mention that it is allot like a 4 stroke in most situations.... except weight.

[kawagumby]

Well, you weren't talking four strokes in general, you were talking an XR250. The performance barriers are: relative lack of horsepower (less than 20 or so), non-cartridge forks (I think) flexy forks, more weight carried higher, longer wheel base, marginal braking. Between the two, if you ever got in a hole or a place where you needed a very maneuverable light bike with quick usable horsepower, the KDX will handle it, the XR won't. I considered my CRF250X inferior to my modified KDX in really tight situations... that's why the CRF is gone. That's why the taller close-ratio YZ250F is gone too. I could go faster on both of them on a typical boring race course, but not on the single track that you don't find in most race courses due to the probablility of bottlenecks. I'm also 165 lbs and 5'10'' so the chassis/horsepower of the KDX works well for me.

Some have the perception that a KDX isn't capable of being a performance machine, but I beg to differ.
I took a national hare scramble (pubic hare) vet B class first place on a bone stock 89 KDX (other than cartridge forks added) against converted motocrossers and KTM's. The KDX is not a great open terrain bike, that is true, but that's not what they were built for. I have enjoyed passing so-called performance bikes on my KDX's for decades and I also continue to enjoy seeing the look on other rider's faces afterwards. Heh. Jeez, and I'm old and decrepit.

Look, I also ride a WR250R, the dual-purpose 4strk that yamaha makes. I spent a lot of time getting the suspension to work well off-road and it is easier to ride on open trails (that's what I ride when my back hurts) 4 strokes hook up better and do make things easier until you get in the tight, challenging stuff. that's when everything changes. For really long rides on single track an XR would not be easier (for me), but yeah, for open trails it will do great.

Inda, I love that seat too....oh, thanks be.

Not trying to get into a piss'n contest, but my perspective is one of many many makes and models of dirt bikes come and gone, and I still can't find a better model for me, myself and I than the KDX. When I quit riding (which is soon I fear), I'm gonna weld that baby up and mount it in my back yard so's I can look at it and dream about the good times whilst I sip my hard cider in the evening sun.

[fuzzy]

I think even on a KDX (being weaker than a 250, for this example, and including any enduro 2-cycle) a cammed throttle would be of good use. Lots of people death-grip the 2-cycle including myself due to the 1/4-3/8T to wide open. The KDX is better than my WR, but I think 1/2-3/4T would be sweet, and very confidence expiring as WOT is rarely needed, and finite part-throttle adjustments are.

[firffighter]

I agree that the KDX is the bike to have for really nasty singletrack. The ability to change lines quickly combined with smooth yet quick throttle response and sharp turning radius make it perfect for the super tight stuff with lots of obstacles to overcome.

For fast terrain, I think there are better bikes out there than either the XR or KDX. I personally like the WR450 for that type of riding where you have whoops, fast corners and long straights.

I am not saying the KDX cant perform with the current crop of bikes either. I have owned 3 KTMs and came back to the KDX because it fits my needs better. Guys are racing the KDX's in the East Coast Enduro series. We have a local 30+ rider who wins lots of enduros on a XR200 with a power roll engine.

Check out Dwitht Rudder on Thumpertalk, he rides a modded CRF230 to victories!

I just liked the XR for a change of pace and I think it can be ridden just as fast as anything else out there in typical woods conditions if ridden correctly.