Hey guys, opinions please

[computerguy50]

Riding my 03' 220 the other day, had a noise develope when I has in 2nd gear only, kind of a whinning noise. Anyways decided to take it to the shop. There was metal in the oil so they split the case. Now the the shop is saying a bearing on the transmission shaft exploded and I need all case bearings, new transmission shaft and all 6 gears. Stating that some off the teeth are broke off or chipped. The bike has always pulled nice, no slippage, jerking, not even rough shifting. Does this sound feasible?

What is a reasonable price for the parts?

Thanks.

[Tuco]

Real sorry to hear about your bike.

Parts are usually cheaper than labor costs. Find out how much they will charge you for the labor.

I usually do as much as I can by myself, and when stuck employ a (professional) mechanic. This way you can really cut down on costs.

Perhaps, try yo find a bottom end for sale on e-b.. and swap out?

Be positive and say to yourself, I can learn about engines from this.

[Indawoods]

Are you speaking of metal particles? Pretty common and not a cause for alarm.... I wouldn't have trusted that diagnosis. You could have just been hearing gear whine...

How often do you change your clutch oil and what do you use?

[barryadam]

ask to look at the parts. If you are not confident, bring someone you trust who can talk to you after.

[canyncarvr]

You've seen the damage?

I think this is the first KDX transmission failure I've heard of.

I have no idea what the price would be for a 'new' transmission (essentially). Whatever figure it is, it's not 'reasonable'.

Hard parts are spendy!

If some teeth are chipped because of them chewing on a bearing, it doesn't seem reasonable to replace 'some' of them. They would put a new gear against an old one? That's not generally good policy.

I took a quick look at RonAyers...picked 'a' shaft ($106) and gears run around $55 each..and there are 10 of 'em. Add the second shaft, a shift drum, some forks and all the bearings..

it's getting close to as much $$ as you would pay for another bike.

What's curious is why it happened. Did they find oil in the bike? More than a teaspoon I mean?

Sorry. There is no bright side to the story.

Do THEY have an opinion of what happened?

What's their price?

Here are a couple of things I say are certainly true:

If a bearing on a transmission shaft 'exploded', you would have more going on than a whine.

If they split the cases on the basis of 'metal in the oil' without talking to you about it first...they are WAY out of line..and assuredly crooked.

They should have the oil that came out of it. I'd want to see it. If they say they tossed it, that's a red flag.

I'd want to see all the gears...and I'd be checking them against Kaw specs to make sure all of them actually came out of a KDX.

I don't trust 'mechanics' in the first place...'cuz I've never dealt with one that didn't screw up..and most of them are lying thieves. That's not a ding on mechanics particularly, but humans in general. I would assume they were lying to me until they proved otherwise.

If they showed me a 220 piston out of my 220 (if I had one) that had a cracked skirt, I'd say, 'Yeah. Happens all the time.'

But...an exploding transmission bearing. That sounds iffy to me...if it had oil in it.

Which...maybe it DIDN'T, in which case, you will need to rebuild the crank, too!

[Indawoods]

One thing to keep in mind...

Times are pretty tough right now. Dealerships are closing left and right and I would not put it past any of them to fabricate problems with your bike to put a little money towards the light bill.

[lemmy]

I do almost all of my own work (at times only with help of the smart guys on here) because I just don't trust mechanics (or most anyone that has a financial interest in the work. I would be very skeptical of that diagnosis.

[Julien D]

I agree 100% with most the posts here. I find it unlikely that you had "a whirring noise" from an exploded transmission bearing. Actually, I find it unlikely you would have made it back without pushing the bike. Do NOT call the shop and ask if you can see the parts. Stop by unannounced and ask to see your bike.

I'm a bit shocked that they would split the cases because of metal particles in the oil. That could be from clutch wear or normal wear in the gear case. Did the shop call you and ask inform you that they were going to split the cases, or just tell you they already did when you called them?

The whole deal sounds shady to me. Sorry to hear about your misfortune.


J.

[Colorado Mike]

If the dealer really did split the cases without your permission, you don't need to pay them, and I would agree with the advice of dropping in unannounced and look for yourself. Best case, they're scamming you and never actually split the cases. If that's the deal, then simply take the bike and tell every local rider you meet about what happened.

If the cases are split, I would recommend you take all the parts and get out of there, but since you don't seem to have experience with the internals it would be easy to overlook some critical parts and as you know they're not cheap.

Doing this kind of work yourself is not like trying to build a nuclear reactor. A shop manual and a few special tools that are much cheaper than shop charges will go a long way to giving you the satisfaction of fixing it. You'll find plenty of help here, and come away with a better understanding of how the bike works. On top of that, you will do a better job than at least 90% of the mechanics out there because you care about the bike.

If it's split you'll really only need a crank install tool which you can get from RMMC, and probably the flywheel/clutch holding tool. If you screw up on assembly and forget something you'll need the case splitter though.

Check the review section for my comments on these. Also check out Rocky Mountain MC for 3 vids on case disassembly.

BTW, My kid had a shift roller fail on his YZ (known issue, well to all but me) and it sent small bearings and a collar through the tranny. He rode like this for quite a while until he blew the motor for a different reason. He later told me he wondered about the little bearings he found in the oil when you changed it. His wonderment wasn't intense enough to ask me of course..

Point is even with that, the damage in the tranny was pretty minimal. I replaced the roller, all tranny bearings, and one cheap part I can't remember. the shift drum had a ding in it, but that didn't touch the fork tracks. If your gears were being damaged by bearing parts floating around, you would hear it. It's not a whirring noise. It's a gravel in the crankcase noise, even worser than a diesel!

I bet your tranny is salvageble.

[skipro3]

Not only do you don't need to pay them if they split your cases, they have to, by law, return the bike to you in the exact condition that they got it in. Including all seals and gaskets. BAR frowns on repair shops who disassemble something that was drivable and return it undrivable. My son had this done to him. We settled with the bike shop for parts only at dealer cost. No labor, no fluids, no bull crap. An inventory of parts, list of retail and their price.

That is why most bids to even give an estimate on a job like this costs so much from a reputable shop; they KNOW that they have to return it as it was if the customer decides to not get the work done. I once had a tranny noise in my street bike. Quote for an estamate was $300 just for that reason. The $300 would apply to the work if I did choose to have them proceed though.

[MXOldtimer]

My F-in-law took his pair of jet skis in for new batts and tune-up the end of last summer.

He called me saying the shop was giving him the run around.
First they had the machines for almost 3 weeks before he called to find if they were done. They told him there was a problem with one and it needed the engine inspected since they started it in the tank and the engine stopped and couldn't be restarted.
My F-in-law has more money than mechanical smarts if any, he agreed to the engine inspection.
2 weeks later they call him and tell him they need to order a new "bottom" end because the pistons were destroyed, he agreed and the quote was $3200.00 for parts and repairs. They needed to order a "bottom" end because they couldn't get the fly wheel off and besides the warranty was better on a re-manufactured bottom end than they could give, repairing his bottom end.

Couple weeks later he called because his big water vacation was coming up and needed his jet skis. They told him the bottom end was still on back order and this is when he called me.

I told him to pick me up and we went directly to the shop. The engine was in 2 card board boxes and after look'n at parts I had my theory what happened.
I asked why they were ordering the bottom end and I got the same reply my F-in-law was given. I asked why they didn't split the bottom end and just order a crank w/FW since the couldn't get he FW off instead of buying cases or complete bottom end. Blank stare.......... then the warranty topic came up.

I asked my F-in-law to come with me and we went into the sales deportment and I asked them to book the value of the jet ski in question. Quote came back at $19-2400.00

We returned to the mechanic and I asked him why he would quote $3200.00 repairs on a machine only worth $2400.00 at best. BLANK STARE # 2.

I told them to cancel the repairs since 2 months had pasted, the parts were still on back order with no delivery date, load the boxes of parts we're taking the machines.

I ordered a "complete" rebuilt engine w/warranty from SBT for $1200.00

Don't be to quick to take a shops word for stuff and get second opinions.

(edit) More for this story about the same shop

This was the same shop that wouldn't warranty a brand new bike on the second ride when the tranny went south in less that 2 weeks. They called to say after inspection the tranny wasn't under warranty due to operator abuse.
I went in and looked at the bike and they hadn't touched it, they hadn't remove a bolt from the bike. They said I had crashed the bike on the shift lever which was pure BS cuz the bike had never been down.
I told them to show me any damage to any part of the bike that would warrant operator abuse. No scuffs on the shifter, peg, hand gripes, anything to show it had been crashed and the guy just looked at me.
I turned and started walk'n off and the guy said "what do you want us to do with your bike?"
I told him they can keep the damn bike until hell freezes over, I never damaged it and I want it repaired under warranty.
I got a call from a rep and explained, 3 weeks later I had my bike back repaired for free.

[canyncarvr]

I want to hear what happens with the <subject> bike!

It would be absolutely killer to show up unannounced, demand to see the bike (like...it would take more than a simple request?)..and it would be sitting there all in one piece.

I'd call the cops.

For their protection, I mean.


Ski's right. There is NO way they should ever consider splitting a case until they have told the customer, 'Repair requires the cases be split. That and gear/bearing replacement could run $XXXX. Do it? Or, no?'

None of this take it apart and THEN tell you it's all blowed up.

Makes me think they wouldn't waste their time TAKING it apart unless they KNEW they had the OK to rape you huge dollars worth.

So...what's the status?

MX.... Didn't you wonder what time-grenade they 'installed' after the stink? I sure would. I'd want it fixed...but by somebody ELSE. Or..the mfg. could damn well send a tech from corporate to do the job. And I'd want to watch, too.

There's way too many people giving the species a bad name.

[computerguy50]

Thanks for the responses and sorry for the delayed response. First off the shop did call me before splitting the case, quoting 2 to 3 hrs labor plus parts needed.

Everything appears to be on the up and up with the shop.

I got by their to inspect the parts in question and it is a mess, the bearing on the end of the transmission input shaft where it rides in the case is gone. I estimate 1/3 of the outer metal ring of the bearing is left, the inside ring and all ball bearings are gone, chewed up by the gears. Another bearing is frozen from the debree I guess. The input shaft is rounded on end where the bearing was, a couple of gears have the corners broke off one tooth, others have some chipping on the surface. I have to admit there has been some metal in the oil for a long time, but I throught it was from the broken actuator rod linkage (KIPS govenor rod by clutch) that I repaired last year but never found the pieces. Broken by previous owner BTW. I was running a full quart of oil and changing every 3 to 4 rides kind of flushing it out. Now looking back that piece may have locked the bearing on the end of the transmission input shaft for some time now.

Anyway the noise I finally started hearing is I believe is the transmission input shaft riding against the outer case or the steel sleeve insert there, but weird I only hear it in second gear, no other noise, slipping, hard shifting.

Questions:
1. Trying to figure if the case is ok because there are some groves in the case were the Input shaft rides in the case. Is the depth of the shaft going into case area controlled by the bearing hitting the side of a gear or does the shaft actually ride against the side of the case?

2. Does anyone have or know where to get a bottom end for my 03' 220, because I am looking at over $450 in parts if my case is still usable? What other years work?

[fuzzy]

95-current KDX...220 or 200.

[canyncarvr]

1. I don't know what the thrust surface is on the input shaft. Suffice to say there IS going to be some thrust..and it's going to go both ways depending on if the input shaft is driving...or driven (accelerating/decelerating).


THAT said, I went and looked...the thrust washer..92022 92022-170 WASHER,THRUST,16.5X28X1 is on the LH end of the input shaft. I suppose you have/they have looked at the parts diagram and seen that washer, so I don't know why ME saying it matters.

2.. What years? All 'H' 200, all 'A' 220 bottom ends will bolt right into your bike.

Call Fredette.

This is after the fact...and of no help to you now...but...

That KIPS piece was in there..it has no place to go that I know of. For the other folks maybe reading this in a similar situation..

FIND IT!!

Here's a bright side to it..that the tranny could accomplish anything with the ongoing destruction that was taking place is a wonderment. Must be pretty darn solid!!!