KDXRIDER.NET

Re: kick lever return travel:
Can I test for this (return to upright position) with case cover still removed?


I think not. ANY spring has a torsional component to its movement. It is after all a twisted bit of metal. If said spring is not contained, that movement may well cause something to come undone.

Besides, the point is that less than very careful cover placement displaces the kicker spring, so checking to see if the kicker works prior to putting on the case (which is the action that makes it NOT work) is of no use in this case.

..as I understand it anyway, although that understanding is meager I'm afraid.



Re: Rear wheel - atm it (and whole bike) is tied up to trailer so rear wheel is not moving or free to move. WOudl this make a difference - despite the fact that I can 'happily select gears' with case off still?

I can't say why, the bike being held stationary, you could move the gear selector and actually CHANGE gears 'happily' with the cover off. I would suspect that something is happening other than actually changing the gears in the transmission.

Further..I suspect that NOT being able to do such a thing with the cover on is normal, and due to the thing you think is gear selection not happening when everything is held together as it should be.

Go with what you know:

It is perfectly normal that with the bike stationary you cannot happily select gears. Even with the motor running you cannot do that. Try it on any other bike. You can shift from neutral to first or maybe to second gear, but you cannot shift N-1-2-3-4-5-6 'happily' just sitting there...stationarily (I think I made that word up).

Could it be there IS no problem?

I'm still not convinced there isn't a misunderstanding between clutch parts and shifter parts..but that may be another issue altogether.

Re: 'Thanks Canyncarvr for stickign with me... :-) '

You are certainly welcome..for as much good as gets done. Understanding certainly works best when it's a shared state/status of conversation. It is frustrating to fall short on either end. I appreciate your sticking with me, too.

Of course...if none of this gets anything resolved...I guess we'll just have to settle for a bowlful of poop stew.

It'll STINK!

Carvr seems to have it all spot on as far as I could tell. Without some movement in the final drive, the difficulty shifting would be expected.

Please note, do NOT test the action of the kickstart lever with the right side engine cover removed. With the protruding shaft of the kickstart assy not supported by it's bushing, there is nothing to hold the kickstart spur from pressing against the crankcase with plenty more than enough force to crack the case.

juliend wrote:Carvr seems to have it all spot on as far as I could tell. Without some movement in the final drive, the difficulty shifting would be expected.

Please note, do NOT test the action of the kickstart lever with the right side engine cover removed. With the protruding shaft of the kickstart assy not supported by it's bushing, there is nothing to hold the kickstart spur from pressing against the crankcase with plenty more than enough force to crack the case.

Oh my!

I didn't think any discussion of the subject would lead to ANYone actually trying to KICK the thing! Move it? Yeah. But certainly not KICK it.

Thanks for bringing that up!

I don't mean to "kick it". I mean to move it. Try it gently next time you have the RH cover off. You will see how after about 1/2" the spur makes contact with the case. A little more pressure and you're using the leverage of the kicker to pry the spur gear against a very thin portion of the case. Without the right hand cover, there is nothing at all to keep the entire kickstart assembly straight, and there's only a few mm of clearance as it is.

It took some investigation after I brought my 89 home from it's previous residence to determine that the cause of the non engaging kicker was a blob of metal from brazing a 3/4" by 1" piece of the RH engine case back in after just such an event. Playing around a bit with the right cover off you can see just how easy it would be to cause some very distressing damage. I ended up replacing the cases.

thanks juliend.

kicking the kicker with Rhs cover off was never my intention but thanks anyway.

I have just discovered that it is the kicker spring that is causing all this grief :-(

It has 'remembered' (for want of a better word) to embed (a coil or 2) itself over the top of the kicker shaft and is very hard to dislodge and place it back straight and flush. This was causing the hollow in the case (for the kick shaft) not to seat on the white plastic collar - but instead on the kicker spring.

After some squirming and pincing with the screwdriver, I think I was able to place it back but not really confident about lining up the notch in the white plastic collar.

how can i ensure the notch in this plastic white collar aligns into the vertical part of the kick spring (at rear)?

How can I manage to place the kick spring on straight and keep it intact?

I also f cked up my brand new case gasket so i have to replace that - again:-(

Byte

kicking the kicker with Rhs cover off was never my intention but thanks anyway.

Ugh. I give up.... Just don't put the kickstart lever on without the RH cover on, period.


As far as that white collar, I don't know what to tell you other than it's a pain in the ass. Take your time, and you'll get it right eventually.

juliend wrote:I don't mean to "kick it". I mean to move it. Try it gently next time you have the RH cover off. You will see how after about 1/2" the spur makes contact with the case. A little more pressure and you're using the leverage of the kicker to pry the spur gear against a very thin portion of the case. Without the right hand cover, there is nothing at all to keep the entire kickstart assembly straight, and there's only a few mm of clearance as it is.

It took some investigation after I brought my 89 home from it's previous residence to determine that the cause of the non engaging kicker was a blob of metal from brazing a 3/4" by 1" piece of the RH engine case back in after just such an event. Playing around a bit with the right cover off you can see just how easy it would be to cause some very distressing damage. I ended up replacing the cases.

Many thanks for that!! Not only do I appreciate the correction on what I'd said about it, but personal experience is ALways a good teacher.

...especially when it's someone else's experience!!



Re: '...so i have to replace that - again:-( '

Nah! Dab a bit of RTV on it.



I am again without understandiing as to what's going on. What 'collar'? 13070? That doesn't engage with the 'vertical' part of the spring (outside) but the horizontal part of the spring (inside).

There are other parts of the latest post that I don't understand, but that's one of the parts.

thanks guys..

this has been an intriguing thread..

This collar fits on the kicker shaft and has a notch that accommodates the spring. REAL PIA as was mentioned.

I basically give up now and will be paying a dealer to fit this damn cover on.

I simply cannot do it

Thanks for your help guys...

Byte

seriously? If all that's holding you up now is the spring and collar, just keep fooling with it. You will get it right eventually, and you will know when it's right. You've got this much time in it, and you're just a step away...

I refuse to let you give up!

C'mon!!!

This occurs to me: You aren't trying to place that collar with the spring latched (both spring ends placed in their respective and correct places), are you? No...I haven't done it, but I'm quite sure the collar would fit a whole lot easier with the spring UNlatched.

Right?

Or not?

yes Carvr, you are correct. You want to unlatch the spring, and then get the collar fitted in it's correct locaiton. I had this exact same problem. I ended up removing the clutch basket again so I could pull the kickstart assy out and make sure it was 100% correct before reinstalling that, the clutch, and then the cover.

PITA yeah, but once you get it, you'll have it.

YEAH! !!!! OK... I won't give up...

I am hiring a compressor today and will be diving back in - to remove clutch basket and undoing the spring.

Yes Canyncvr - I have been trying the relcoate that white collar back into it's slot with both ends of spring still embedded. MY BAD!

I'll report back soon.

Byte

Re: '..I am hiring a compressor...'

That's her night name? What kind'a kinky stuff comes with a hired woman that specializes in compression?



..maybe you meant AIR compressor.........as in renting one....


You're getting one for the clutch nut? Heck...buy an electric/battery operated impact that you can KEEP for next time.

Thansk for tip on the electric operated imapct - I did nto know these existed - still learning.... :-)

Compressor, Extender, Reliever - she has the same name - lol...

Anyway, I have pulled the clutch out and successfully installed that damn collar back into it's groove and kick spring looks like it sits more uniform on the shaft..

I have a question about the Exhaust advancer and how it should be re-installed. This came out (flopped out really) when the clutch cover came off.

I don't know which way it should be re-assembled (with the gear facing inwards or outwards)? The online manual shows conflicting views and need your advice on which way this advancer is to be re-assembled...

(See top Right hand corner of photo)





Each picture shows the advancer is opposite orientations - when installed - at least that's how I am intrepeting these images..

Help?

Byte

Re: 'How do i attach pics? '

Put the link of the site where you have posted a pic, it will link from the post.

Used to be able to link to the gallery..but the add pic function hasn't been working for awhile.

Look your bike up in the OEM microfiche at ronayers.com. That might be helpful. The KIPS drive is in the engine cover 1/2 diagram.

I don't know that there is an inner/outer to that gear. It's just a straight cut gear, ain't it? I'm not sure if there is a relief in the gear for the pin ot not. If there is, well, th'ar 'ya go!

I would think you could see the marks on the gear from the pin that held it on in the first place. ...or the spring on the other side.

You are talking about the advancer assembly gear...right? 59051?

OK...you got your photobucket links up.....

Sorry, though. I don't know what gear you're referring to..NOT 59051, I presume? (I didn't get how it could 'fall out' with that pin in place anyway, being HELD in place with the spring.)

Rephrase/restate? Or...someone else's input?

THanks.

In photo 2 - shows a clear image of the exhaust advancer gear.

The bottom of this item (circular dish type material) is facing up in photo 1 (rhs).

I do not know which way this gear should be sitting once installed.

Byte

Sorry..this is kind'a like pulling teeth, ain't it?

In photo 2 - shows a clear image of the exhaust advancer gear.


Yes. It does. And you ARE talking about PN 59051, correct? The white nylon gear.

The bottom of this item (circular dish type material) is facing up in photo 1 (rhs).

The 'bottom' of 'this item'? The bottom of the gear?

That can't be.

I think you mean the bottom of the ASSEMBLY, not the (single, individual) ITEM, correct?


The reference is not clear. When in one sentence you point out a particular thing (the white gear) and you make note of it, '..clear image of the...gear', and in the NEXT sentence say '..the bottom of this item', you are referring to the bottom of the white gear.


I think it might be like this:

You said, '..a clear image of the exhaust advancer gear.' You don't mean the gear. You are referring to the entiire assembly, and NOT the white nylon gear.

Correct?

And the word 'item' refers not to the gear...but to the entire assembly.

Correct?

Has to be..'cuz the only 'circular dish type material' is the actual governor rod advancing piece, the weight holder.

Do you know how the advancer mechanism works? Hopefully the online manual has a section in it similar to the printed manual. In the front of the printed manual there is a graphical depiction of how the advancer assembly moves...what directions things move in.

Look for it. If you know how it works, its assembly is rather self-evident.

If such a write up is not in the online manual...display the illustration from ronayers in a browser window on your computer and follow along below:

PN 13070..The guide. It has channels that steel balsl sit in.

PN 49111...The weight holder. That's probably the 'circular dish type' piece you refer to. It's the only thing that LOOKS like a circular dish (a bowl perhaps? )

Under spring tension, at rest, the steel balls are pushed to the inside of the channels each ball sits in, toward the shaft, the spring is at its longest length.

As the assembly spins, each steel ball is forced toward the OUTside of the channel it sits in. Because the balls are against that 'dish' shape, when they move they force IT (the dish shape) away, shortening/compressing the spring. The governor rod is sitting in a slot in the dish shaped piece (weight holder). As the weight holder moves, it moves the governor rod.


Did you LOOK at the parts diagram at ronayers?

If you did, I can't say I can understand how there is still a question.


And...sorry again, but I STILL don't see how the advancer assembly is wrong one pic from the other.

Hell...I don't even SEE the advancer in the top pic. Not fully assembled, anyway.

..which is the crux of the matter I think.

To repeat, say again, make crystal clear....the two pics are not of the same thing. The top pic shows the guide, but NOT the gear. There is NO white gear in the top pic.

Uh..that's because it isn't THERE!




The advancer assembly is correctly assembled in the bottom pic, the one with the WHITE gear in it...the one with the NUMBERS in it.

If the assembly is apart to the extent you indicate, you have more problems than putting it back together I would guess. Do you have all four steel balls? The roll pin that holds the whole thing together?


You HAVE to know/learn how this assembly works. When you do, you WILL be able to assemble it correctly with no effort or problem whatsoever.

If you do NOT learn how it works, you could just as easily leave the balls out as put them in. In which case, the KIPS will NOT work.

...and who knows where those steel balls went............


I'm quite sure I pulled every tooth. If there is further question, I am also quite sure I don't have the answer.

I'm done for the night.

hi canyncrv.

THansk for your interesting post.

We'll get there - stay with me... :-)

The white nylon gear is part of the whole assy which includes the governor rod advancing piece and weight holder.

If you turn this whole assy upside down you will see that image of the assy noted in photo 1 in the top right hand corner.

I think I understand my dilemma now - Photo 2 shows the white nylon gear assy (including the governor rod advancing piece and weight holder) connected to actual cover. When this cover is mounted onto it's case, the nylon gear will happily slide into it's groove aligned with the other gear.

I am sorted on this one now...except for one thing - do i assemble this govenor assy into the cover first and then flip over / lay the cover (with govenor assy installed) onto case?

You have yet to pull my gold plated tooth - keep trying

Byte

Sorry. I don't see it in photo 1. I do not see any white nylon gear running off the primary (crank) gear. Maybe one tooth of it?

Here's part of the problem...I think.

Re: 'If you turn this whole assy upside down you will see that image of the assy noted in photo 1 in the top right hand corner.'


What's upside down..what's right side up to you?

The white nylon gear runs on the primary gear on the end of the crank. It is the most INWARD part of the advancer assembly, inward meaning closest to the centerline of the engine..the case seam.

The weight holder and guide are on the the OUTside of the advancer assembly, away from the centerline of the engine.

Again..there is a tech note in the printed manual that explains the KIPS. I don't know if that segment is in the online manual or not. It's page 1-8, General Information in the printed manual.

If you had looked at that, I don't see how there is a question.


Re: 'do i assemble this govenor assy into the cover first and then flip over / lay the cover (with govenor assy installed) onto case?

The answer is in the manual. That you have a manual and still ask the question gives me pause as to what it is that's the problem.

From the printed manual,l pg 5-11:

Fit the advancer lever pin into the groove on tghe exhaust advancer, and install the exhaust valve advancer in the right engine cover while turning the lever shaft.

How about this...I said pic 2 was correct. It is. Its a pic of the COVER (note the cast stem that contains the governor rod). The upward pointing shaft is what will fit into the CASE, with the nylon gear meshing with the crank/output gear. Happily, even!

Pic one is correct too as far as what I can see in it. But that shows the advancer assembly NOT in the cover, but in the CASE.


One more sorry. I've peated, repeated and reworded what I think is the same thing so many times there may well be something I have mixed up myself at this point.

Reading over all of what I've written gives me a headache. If I didn't know how it went together, I doubt very much I would be enlightened after reading all of it.


Good luck.

I'm going riding........

Thansk Canyncvr.

Your'e a good man indeed.

I got confused with the cover and case and lead to the confusion I have created. Pretty silly hey?

Anyway, I think we have it licked now.

You need a 'compressor' to rid yourself of that headache now...

Many thanks buddy.

Byte