Sorry: KIPS question

[dentvet]

I hate to start my kdxrider experience like this but here goes:

How much should the kips geartrain move during visual inspection? I can move the geartrain through its range of motion by turning the shaft through the inspection port on the left head. When I start the engine and rev it I can see the gear rotate slightly counterclockwise, but not much.

Should this gear rotate all the way through its range of motion as you rev the engine? Maybe I wasn't revving it high enough?

BTW 98 kdx200, first 2 stroke in a long time for me, runs great on the bottom but no so great wide open. I think I know the diagnostic flowchart vaguely. The kips inspection seems to be a fairly easy item if I knew exactly what I'm looking for.

thanks, dave

[lemmy]

Sounds like it may be needing a cleaning. If you take off the slotted cover on the left side. How easy is it to move through the range of motion? Mine wasn't moving (just twitching) when I got it. Then I found out the guy that owned it before me had the "claw" on the right side (couples the horizontal kips shaft to the advancer shaft coming up from the clutch cover) in the wrong place so that the kips was always active. It had no low end power.

[Jeb]

Dave,

You get between 1/8 and 1/4 turn or thereabouts when 6k RPMs is reached . . . you should be getting as much rotation during that time as you would be physically rotating the assy from the left side.

BTW - Are you moving the "gear train" with everything assembled? Unless I'm not understanding you correctly, if you twist as you described with everything assembled - i.e. the claw in place - you stand a chance of damaging something down in the KIPS governor area under the right side cover or the shaft that transmits the KIPS govenor movement into the "gear train". The spring in the KIPS governor assembly down there is quite stout so it is unlikely that you're compressing it very much at all - if any - with your twisting action. What's almost certainly going on is that something else that can break is being twisted.

Another BTW - if I misunderstood you and you are very wisely removing the claw before rotating the main shaft I very humbly apologize ahead of time.

Welcome to the site!

[lemmy]

I was told by several people (I am pretty sure on here) that it is safe to turn gently (don't force it) from the left side even if the claw is not removed.

[canyncarvr]

There is a LOT more force applied to the governor rod by either forcing the LHT nut the wrong direction OR taking the nut off the RIGHT direction than there is by manually activating the KIPS valves via the nut under the LH slotted cover. If the governor rod cannot hold up to the force necessary (considering the system to be working) to manually activate it using that LH access, it will not hold up to the force necessary to activate the KIPS itself.

This assumes that 'too much force' is not something that needs be explained. If you're using a 1/2" drive ratchet to get the leverage you need to activate that little nut under the LH cover, that's an operator error.

Re: 'Should this gear rotate all the way through its range of motion as you rev the engine?'

Yes.

Say again what direction you turn the LH nut under the slotted cover..and which way you observe the engine trying to move it?

[dentvet]

hey thanks for the replies. whilst looking at the gear under the slotted plug: at rest the "pinion" is meshed to the "rack" so that it can't move clockwise because there are no more teeth to enmesh. The pinion can only be turned counterclockwise with the 10mm nut. as it turns it pulls the rack towards the front.

When I revved the engine the gear moved a tooth or two counterclockwise. I'll try it again, maybe I didn't rev it high enough. Maybe I'll post video of the inspection. here's a pic robbed from another thread on the subject for sake of visualization

[canyncarvr]

Like this: **edit** You evidently found the same pic....



Copyright scheckaet


Once the actuator starts to move, it should move completely to open. The KIPS is held in a 'closed' state by a spring and detent ball that you can see right under that slotted cover. If there is enough force to move the rod past the spring/checkball pressure there should be enough force to keep moving it.

[lemmy]

The spring and ball seemed to be keeping mine from completely coming back to the rest state. So I took it out just to see how it ran. It ran really well...at least when I wasn't going down hill (but this is not a problems with the KIPS)

[dentvet]

So I looked at the bike again and took my camera. I should have filmed it before I messed with it. When I revved it the gear would just barely twist counterclockwise.

Then I loosened the detent ball bolt and tried it again. Then the gear would cycle all the way through the range of motion (about 90 degrees) Then I took this video to show the action. I tightened the detent back up and the full action was still present, the detent must have been gummed up enough to keep the shaft from rotating.

I took the bike for a ride and it was still very anemic on top so I'll keep going down the diagnostic pathway. Bottom is good but zero top end hit. BTW can you all hear what I'm hoping is normal KDX/KIPS rattle noise?

[lemmy]

Mine wouldn't move that quickly until I removed the spring and ball completely. I don't know if it is good for it to move that fast, but I took the ball out so it would close completely again.

[GS]

That is a familiar rattle!!

[canyncarvr]

IF the KIPS mainshaft was only wiggling a little when you were riding it, and not it ain't...surely it runs better?

'Anemic' could describe it being somewhat less that it could be, or it could be used to generally describe a KDX compared to an MXer, too. Doesn't take too much off on the main jet to noticeably reduce top-end open throttle.

Rattle? What rattle. I din't hear anything........

Mostly what I noticed was somebody's finger or thumb in the middle of the damn way.......


Now....go eat summore turkey!

[dentvet]

cc, yeah I thought it would pull alot better but it didn't. This is my first kdx so I have no point of reference. It doesn't gain revs cleanly on top. The bike is a bit neglected so I have to start at the top of the tuning list.

snorkel:deleted,

plug:cleaned, i'll replace today,

airfilter:cleaned,

carb:plug removed to see that at least the bowl bottom is clean and that the main jet is a 160

Kips:visual actuation now seems normal, I think i can hear a different resonance while riding it through the rpms as it opens up now

exhaust:stock pipe with fmf powercore, I'm switching to a stock silencer to get a spark arrestor

So now I'm to the jetting stage. But I can't jet it without knowing the piston and rings are ok, right? Is there a test that can tell me the top end condition short of tearing it down? Is there a compression test specification for the 200?

Maybe I should just order a piston kit and then clean the carb and inspect the reeds while waiting for parts to arrive.

[grump99]

Do a compression test. That should give you a rough idea if the rings are still ok.

A new plug can make a world of difference. For a few buck its worth a shot.

Generally, when a top end is worn out, the bike will be hard to start and not idle very well. Just be aware that poor jetting can mimick those symptoms.

If it were my bike, I would tear everything down and clean/inspect/replace as needed. That way you know everything is ok.

Good luck!

[GS]

Dentvet,
May I ask what type of riding you do? Just trying to figure out if it's the right bike for you. These KDX puddle-jumpers are tractors...stump-pullers, but you need to enjoy that type of power, so as not to miss the top end hit.....which they lack, for the most part.

The power delivery is pretty unexciting on top, but very tractable and moves you along without the 'burst' of a MXer

[dentvet]

GS: good question. I got back into bikes this summer after a 10 year hiatus. I grew up out west and loved the trailriding. LAst bike there was a husaberg 600.

Moved to VA. I bought a couple of old KTM 620s dual sports, mainly because one came with supermoto wheels. Then I met someone that rides offroad finally and he rides in the woods. My ktms do great but they are 300# and are geared for dualsport. My buddy rides a crf450 and I keep up pretty well but hardly ever get into second gear.

SO I looked into getting an auto clutch for the ktm to make it a tad easier. revlocs are like $600 but they didn't make one for my bike. Then along comes a kdx for $600. no brainer for me.

I've ridden it once for about 25 miles in the woods and had a blast. I like how it weighs about 75# less than the ktms and was surprised at how much bottom end it has. I'm having fun learning a new bike and want it to be as good as it can, without spending massive $,of course.

glad to have found such a helpful forum, too

[Mr. Wibbens]

I don't know about lacking a top end hit

[GS]

People here are the best, anywhere. The BEST!

Sounds like you're maybe a little spoiled by displacement!! But the KDX is worth gettin right, she can really keep up and you can watch the other riders shake their collective heads......which for some strange reason REALLY makes me smile.
Guess I like being the underdog.....with others looking down attcha, until they get a lil green surprise! Just adds to the FUN factor.

Now don't go off analyzin that!!

[Jeb]

If it is necessary to remove the ball and spring to get the KIPS to completely open as it should, there is something WRONG.

If the governor rod cannot hold up to the force necessary (considering the system to be working) to manually activate it using that LH access, it will not hold up to the force necessary to activate the KIPS itself" . . . I gotta disagree. The forces against what the governor rod must work when the KIPS governor is activating the rod (the ball/detent) is much less than the forces the rod must work against when working against that spring in the KIPS governor. Remove the claw and you can twist the rod that activates the power valve and sub valves much more easier than you can compress the governor spring.

And . . . I always liked the mild hit of a KDX but if you like a big 2-stroke hit a KDX just doesn't have it.

[Mr. Wibbens]

And . . . I always liked the mild hit of a KDX but if you like a big 2-stroke hit a KDX just doesn't have it.

It's milder but it can have plenty of "HIT" just depends on jetting

When I first got my carb back from Mr.Black it had more hit than I cared for. Front end would come up way to much.

Changing to a DEK and airscrew tuned for the SSS, smoothed it out, BUT it will still run on top fine

You guys making it sound like the bike is all down low and no go