Rod knock or KIPS?

[ballsymcgee]

Quick update, got the top end kit in. Sending the piston and cylinder to LA Sleeve to replate it. Gonna open the right side cover to see what KIPS part I broke while I wait for the cylinder.

[KDXGarage]

A sleeve place replates?? That is surprising.

Thanks for the follow up.

[ballsymcgee]

A sleeve place replates?? That is surprising.

Thanks for the follow up.

Surprisingly enough they are cheaper and less sketchy than any local place that does it

[ballsymcgee]

Heres a short little update.

Sorry it took some months, between waiting on parts and the current pandemic and being put on a 7 12s schedule for work, the KDX had to be put aside. I re nikasil'd the cylinder, put in a new top end kit, and replaced the KIPS pin I damaged. Unfortunately, that damn noise still persists.



I dont know guys. Literally everything else is normal and the noise goes away when I rev up. She rides completely fine.

[PacificNWRider]

I got a Few ideas...

from MOST plausible to least In my opinion..

-Top con rod bearing...if you didn't replace it. If you had bad piston slap before, from my experience this is usually from the con rod, or ends up working over the con rod. I've seen them oval at the top. I've seen a lot of times you get a piston and pin, and you check the play on the lower end / crank side and the top bearing is over looked. hopefully you can ignore all this and you did the top bearing.

-Wrong size piston during rebuild, same thing as previous piston - example: you need a "D" instead of "C". If they just re-plated it and slid the rings in by themselves to gap them, possible the machine shop didn't actually size the piston to the bore, just rings and re-plate? I think if YOU supply the piston they ASSUME YOU have done this.

-Very loud kips valve rattle - almost like its one tooth open at idle, but you said it rides fine, so maybe not setup wrong but A LOT of play for a loud rattle? -The fact that you don't here a KIPS rattle and that to me it sounds very much like one, a very loud one, but very similar. seems to make me point this direction..

-Your exhaust springs are worn out or something else with the pipe end, o-rings, copper washer, or ill fitting pipe, allow it rattle with each
pressure spike...hopeful for an easy fix?

-Worn reeds or extremely tight reeds? can't remember which, I think I've heard very worn or broken reeds make a similar type sound.

-Your flywheel nut is not tight, this can cause a knocking sound, but the sound doesn't seem to match it this sound


well theres my best guesses, hope it helps you some way

[KDXGarage]

What am I missing? It sounds normal to me. I bought my 2005 KX250 new, and it sounds a touch worse than that since new.

[firsthere]

That's what my 04 sounds like after a powerseal replate with new piston "A" matched to final hone. Upper bearing replaced, lower rod had no up/down play.

[PacificNWRider]

That's what my 04 sounds like after a powerseal replate with new piston "A" matched to final hone. Upper bearing replaced, lower rod had no up/down play.

What am I missing? It sounds normal to me. I bought my 2005 KX250 new, and it sounds a touch worse than that since new.

After re watching the videos this morning, I agree with these statements... #3 on the list above, I mean if you really don't think its normal you could check the things on the list above, but sounds pretty normal to me this morning

[firsthere]

After re watching the videos this morning, I agree with these statements... #3 on the list above, I mean if you really don't think its normal you could check the things on the list above, but sounds pretty normal to me this morning
[/quote]

I think we can all agree the typical KDX knock/rattle sound doesn't give a warm fuzzy feeling.

[kdxdazz]

I differ from most on here as I believe the kips rattle is not normal, mine used to knock like that and it was caused by worn parts, replaced the parts and the knock went away, first thing to check is take off the kips cover and look at the gear with the bike running, it should not rock back and forth, if it does that is your rattle, check the spring and ball bearing is in there as some people remove it believing kawasaki engineers got it wrong

[PacificNWRider]

I think we can all agree the typical KDX knock/rattle sound doesn't give a warm fuzzy feeling.

Yeah you got that right..... its either "hmmm, thats got to be normal", or "thats going to explode any minute"

[PacificNWRider]

I differ from most on here as I believe the kips rattle is not normal, mine used to knock like that and it was caused by worn parts, replaced the parts and the knock went away, first thing to check is take off the kips cover and look at the gear with the bike running, it should not rock back and forth, if it does that is your rattle, check the spring and ball bearing is in there as some people remove it believing kawasaki engineers got it wrong

Yeah.... but then it's a matter of time before the parts get worn and start to rattle. Its one of those things that doesn't hurt the operation but hurts the ears. Those parts can be hard to source or very expensive depending..... so without the NEED to replace it, and parts being what they are It's a "just fine" option to leave it, that's why its known as the KIPS rattle, because most learn to live with it, or have to live with it. I have also heard new bikes make this same sound.

I thought it was an issue where the exhaust/power valves have to have a certain amount of clearance so they ride smoothly and doesn't bind up in the presence of light to medium carbon.... the sound you hear is the exhaust/power valve rattling because there is no pressure on the governor..??? just my personal observation

So your telling me your bike has ZERO kips rattle now??? I want to hear it!!! not because I don't believe you, just because I never have heard one without!

[kdxdazz]

I differ from most on here as I believe the kips rattle is not normal, mine used to knock like that and it was caused by worn parts, replaced the parts and the knock went away, first thing to check is take off the kips cover and look at the gear with the bike running, it should not rock back and forth, if it does that is your rattle, check the spring and ball bearing is in there as some people remove it believing kawasaki engineers got it wrong

Yeah.... but then it's a matter of time before the parts get worn and start to rattle. Its one of those things that doesn't hurt the operation but hurts the ears. Those parts can be hard to source or very expensive depending..... so without the NEED to replace it, and parts being what they are It's a "just fine" option to leave it, that's why its known as the KIPS rattle, because most learn to live with it, or have to live with it. I have also heard new bikes make this same sound.

I thought it was an issue where the exhaust/power valves have to have a certain amount of clearance so they ride smoothly and doesn't bind up in the presence of light to medium carbon.... the sound you hear is the exhaust/power valve rattling because there is no pressure on the governor..??? just my personal observation

So your telling me your bike has ZERO kips rattle now??? I want to hear it!!! not because I don't believe you, just because I never have heard one without!

I didn't use the word zero but it has no rattle just like valves on a 4 stroke shouldn't rattle but you can barely hear them. From my experience the rattle is not caused by the power valves rattling in the cylinder,although that is a component as you say they can't be tight because they have to allow for carbon build up, it's caused by wear on the arm and pin that connects the shaft and power valve and also caused by the spring losing tension and the ball bearing wearing in its bolt holder slightly, I got an oversized pin machined up and went with a slightly larger ball bearing, it's very important that the valves are held shut under pressure, that spring is not there to alter timing as some think, it's there to hold the whole assembly closed, the timing is controlled by the centrifugal advance in the clutch cover. Mine was rattling so bad at idle that it wore away between the cylinder and power valve that the 2 bolts that should hold the power valve in weren't doing there job, I had to shim it out with copper. I wish I had have taken photos and done a write up on fixing the kips rattle

[KDXGarage]

kdxdazz, thanks for that.

[Goat]

https://kapwi.ng/c/lQvOWe1v
My 95 for comparison, if the link works.
It is outside. So no extra sound off the walls.

[Goat]

Before KDX I had 72 DT250 & did not even know powervalves existed. The rattle scared me quite a bit.
Met an ex-KDX owner 2nd weekend I went riding and he made some comforting comment like, “they all sound like that”. And I decided not to worry about it anymore.

[PacificNWRider]

kdxdazz, thanks for that.

What am I missing? It sounds normal to me. I bought my 2005 KX250 new, and it sounds a touch worse than that since new.

Thanks for what? Just curious?? I still haven't heard a KIPS that didn't rattle, would sure love to hear one. Sounds like shared that opinion a couple days ago.

[PacificNWRider]

I differ from most on here as I believe the kips rattle is not normal, mine used to knock like that and it was caused by worn parts, replaced the parts and the knock went away, first thing to check is take off the kips cover and look at the gear with the bike running, it should not rock back and forth, if it does that is your rattle, check the spring and ball bearing is in there as some people remove it believing kawasaki engineers got it wrong

Yeah.... but then it's a matter of time before the parts get worn and start to rattle. Its one of those things that doesn't hurt the operation but hurts the ears. Those parts can be hard to source or very expensive depending..... so without the NEED to replace it, and parts being what they are It's a "just fine" option to leave it, that's why its known as the KIPS rattle, because most learn to live with it, or have to live with it. I have also heard new bikes make this same sound.

I thought it was an issue where the exhaust/power valves have to have a certain amount of clearance so they ride smoothly and doesn't bind up in the presence of light to medium carbon.... the sound you hear is the exhaust/power valve rattling because there is no pressure on the governor..??? just my personal observation

So your telling me your bike has ZERO kips rattle now??? I want to hear it!!! not because I don't believe you, just because I never have heard one without!

I didn't use the word zero but it has no rattle just like valves on a 4 stroke shouldn't rattle but you can barely hear them. From my experience the rattle is not caused by the power valves rattling in the cylinder,although that is a component as you say they can't be tight because they have to allow for carbon build up, it's caused by wear on the arm and pin that connects the shaft and power valve and also caused by the spring losing tension and the ball bearing wearing in its bolt holder slightly, I got an oversized pin machined up and went with a slightly larger ball bearing, it's very important that the valves are held shut under pressure, that spring is not there to alter timing as some think, it's there to hold the whole assembly closed, the timing is controlled by the centrifugal advance in the clutch cover. Mine was rattling so bad at idle that it wore away between the cylinder and power valve that the 2 bolts that should hold the power valve in weren't doing there job, I had to shim it out with copper. I wish I had have taken photos and done a write up on fixing the kips rattle

Yeah, that is pretty much what I exactly said... You said the bike didn't have a KIPS rattle anymore and it was not normal....

The rattle can be from anyone of the parts being worn, not a specific two, BUT they are MADE to rattle from the factory because they need clearance. Valve tapping from being out of tolerance is not an INTENDED design and will further damage the engine. I wish you would have done a write up too, I'm curious to see how you fixed something the Kawasaki Engineers couldn't.

I would like to see how the power valve can wear away the cylinder without the bolts being loose or parts missing.

[PacificNWRider]

https://kapwi.ng/c/lQvOWe1v
My 95 for comparison, if the link works.
It is outside. So no extra sound off the walls.

Yes that sound about right. I also think you nailed it as far as the microphone picking up extra noise inside the pool house?

[ballsymcgee]

So... Im good?