What am I doing wrong?

[Wazowski]

This site lacks a forum that would come in handy right about now. Maybe it has to do with liability issues I don't know but why is there not a proper riding style/technique forum? Maybe style and technique are just to personal but I have a question some of you may have an answer to.

3 times I encountered this problem and the last time I went down hard. Mind you we had already been riding for 3 hours and I am more tired by now but here's the situation.

Riding on gravel road and I come to a slight down hill curve. It doesn't matter what direction...the results are the same. The slight down hill and outside curve has got the gravel piled up 3 to 4 inches deep and loose on the outside cuz all the traffic throws it to the downhill side. I back off the throttle and start to brake but she just won't stop and I don't want to throw the handle bars hard and lay it down for no reason. She just won't turn. She just won't stop either! I don't want to lock up the front tire either cuz then she really won't steer.

The first time I recover and wonder "what the hell was that all about?

The second time I recover just in time to avoid go down a 50 foot embankment. Rest assured I would have laid it down before that happened but in each case I am unable to understand why I can't just turn away.

The third time is the "charm"...same situation but this time I knew I was going down. It looked worse that it was cuz my son and nephew were surprised when I announced I was OK and after they pulled the bike off my leg (thank you Mr. O'Neal...cheap boots and worth every penny) I got up and after a few minutes rode off. They said I went over the handlebars...I don't remember that but my nephew said he saw my back tire where my head should have been!

Anyway I knew it was coming and got ready to roll...landed on my back but not hard enough to knock the wind out of me...

So what the hell am I doing wrong?

My son sez to trust my tires but...no tire is any good in loose gravel!

I have read some good advise from other forums and most of it applies to MX but the one thing I did learn was a technique for flat turns that works every time it's tried. Lean into the turn, shift your weight to the outside and put weight on the outside peg. I do this all the time but for some reason, in this situation, it doesn't seem to apply.

Anyone else encounter this?

Thanx in advance.

Waz

[Indawoods]

No bike does well on gravel... it's just a bad situation. Avoid it if possible and for God's sake...slow down!

[kawagumby]

It would be a good idea to practice that turn or find other ones like it to practice on. Start out slow and build up speed only as you gain a feel for your body's postioning on the bike as well as throttle amount and control. It is all about practice IMO, like any technical sport. When I was starting out, learning how to square off turns was a neat way to keep youself out of trouble when things get weird. You can square off about anything...brake hard (while going straight only) nearly to a stop and loading the front, let the back wheel lock some and come around (wiil do it easily on gravel, eh?) slide back and gas it in the new direction.

By downhill curve do you mean off-camber? Off-camber turns take a slightly different technique than flat turns which includes centering on the bike and constant, but limited throttle. (I'm sure others will have different ideas but that's how I do it). I'd bet you can find plenty of discussions about off-camber technique in MX forums.

[Colorado Mike]

From the description I wonder if you're also having a bout with target fixation. Lot's of people do, a buddy of mine had a bad case of it on his street bike (this ended up costing him a lot of money). I know that if I watch something that I don't want to be part of, I hit it. It's good to look at a hazard, know it's there, but don't focus on it. Focus on your line. In gravel or silty-loose conditions, I find I have to steer from both ends a good bit. if the front is wanting to wash out, a blip of the throttle can get it back toward the inside . This is practically impossible to force yourself to do if you are staring at the apex of the turn, or a ravine on the other side of it, or any other object you don't want to run into.

[Wazowski]

No bike does well on gravel... it's just a bad situation. Avoid it if possible and for God's sake...slow down!

I was TRYING...really I was!

Besides I was losing ground to my son who was ahead of me and had just past through the same spot.

Well he may have been sticking a little closer to the shallow side of the road but I don't run near as fast as he and his cousin do. They are always waiting up for me down the road.

My reflexes are slower and I had already been riding for hours by then.

I slowed way down after the crash...no surprise there.

Waz

[crazyaboutriding]

when you are going through the corner, do you let off the break???

early this year i was kind of having the same problem except on loose dirt instead of gravel. then i thought back to what my dad used to explain to me watching supercross on tv..... "you see what they are doing in the corners??? they get on the break hard 5 ft. before the corner or right when they will still be rolling pretty fast through the corner, then let it coast if not get on the gas through the corner. back tires track in a straight line when they are locked up w/ the breaks". then i tried this...

even if you are still going a little fast through the corner, just force yourself to get off the break and ride it out. the bike will track well, especially where you said there is a 3-4" berm of gravel, seeing as i have to do it on a flat if not down hill-pointed turn with loose dirt.

at first you feel realy uncomfortable letting off the break through the corner, but once you get used to it you find you can really cary quite a bit of speed through the corners.

oh, and i know i mentioned how we were watching supercross when he told me that, seeing as they are on flat ground, but i do this on down hill switchbacks and it works all the same.

[Wazowski]

It would be a good idea to practice that turn or find other ones like it to practice on. Start out slow and build up speed only as you gain a feel for your body's postioning on the bike as well as throttle amount and control. It is all about practice IMO, like any technical sport. When I was starting out, learning how to square off turns was a neat way to keep youself out of trouble when things get weird. You can square off about anything...brake hard (while going straight only) nearly to a stop and loading the front, let the back wheel lock some and come around (wiil do it easily on gravel, eh?) slide back and gas it in the new direction.

By downhill curve do you mean off-camber? Off-camber turns take a slightly different technique than flat turns which includes centering on the bike and constant, but limited throttle. (I'm sure others will have different ideas but that's how I do it). I'd bet you can find plenty of discussions about off-camber technique in MX forums.

That square off turn sounds a little advanced for me but I could do like you suggest and practice it some.

By down hill curve I mean a curve that is banked opposite of what you would normally expect. The ditch side is lower than the crown of the road. I guess that might describe off camber. What do you think?

I'll check that other site for off camber tips but I think Colorado Mike may have something to what he sez in his post.

Thanx!

Waz

[Wazowski]

From the description I wonder if you're also having a bout with target fixation. Lot's of people do, a buddy of mine had a bad case of it on his street bike (this ended up costing him a lot of money). I know that if I watch something that I don't want to be part of, I hit it. It's good to look at a hazard, know it's there, but don't focus on it. Focus on your line. In gravel or silty-loose conditions, I find I have to steer from both ends a good bit. if the front is wanting to wash out, a blip of the throttle can get it back toward the inside . This is practically impossible to force yourself to do if you are staring at the apex of the turn, or a ravine on the other side of it, or any other object you don't want to run into.

Ya know, I no sooner hit submit and started for home that it hit me...in all those cases I was fixated on the place I didn't want to be...trying to avoid it at all cost and letting the bike ride me instead of me riding the bike.

If I had just looked away to the spot I wanted to go it may just have worked. I do it on single track and off road. As a matter of fact I was relieved to finally be going through the woods after riding the gravel for a time.

You may be on to something CM.

Waz

[kawagumby]

Yeah, what you describe is an off-camber turn. Colorado Mike may be right as to what is part of your issue...always look where you want to go, not where you don't - and always try to look well beyond what is directly in front of you (except in slow single track situations, of course). Coming out of a turn look as far ahead as is practical and your bike will pretty much automatically follow your eyes. It works.

A lot of this stuff just comes with riding time.

[JoeR]

I think most of us learn about target fixation( although I've never heard it named before) the hard way. For me, it was every time I was riding near the limits of my ability I ended up running into something. It wasn't until I wrecked a go-cart on a turn that I should'a made that I stopped to figure out what was happening. Since I started looking where I wanted to go, instead of at what I didn't want to hit, I ride a LOT faster without hitting stuff....mostly.
Joe

[kelasaki]

I'll second (or third or fourth) target fixation. Also get your braking done early, try downshifting without the clutch, and ride it like a really slick flat corner.

[Wazowski]

Well it sounds like I'm not the only one this happens to and if it's mostly just inexperience then I don't feel like an MR (motorcycle retard). I will try it all and let you know what I discover in a later post...

...if I live through it that is!

Waz

[GS]

Waz:
You ain't alone!
Looking far ahead helps a lot.
If the 'pucker' factor gets ahold of ya, then something is needed to break it's influence too.

Takes confidence to rip when riding on gravel ball bearings and I suggest using BOTH ends of the bike to steer....blipping the throttle to slightly loosen the back end if the front won't stick that way you'd like it to.

Keep us posted on your progress.....which I sure can relate to, BTW.

[crazybrit]

I have read some good advise from other forums and most of it applies to MX but the one thing I did learn was a technique for flat turns that works every time it's tried. Lean into the turn, shift your weight to the outside and put weight on the outside peg. I do this all the time but for some reason, in this situation, it doesn't seem to apply.

Waz

I took American Supercamp a couple years ago and they drill this into you. Years of street riding tells you to lean with the bike but thats obviously a no-no when traction is low.

It's not just shifting your weight, it's moving your whole body outside the turn. For a left turn, butt-crack is over the right edge of the seat, raised right arm at right angles and pushing the left bar out and down with your fully extended left arm.

Probably didn't apply because you, seeing the approaching peril&doom, were totally tensed up. I find it really easy to do the above in one direction but have a total body impediment in the other.

Practice is the only way. Plus obviously look where you want to go, thru th e turn, don't target fixate

[Wazowski]

I have read some good advise from other forums and most of it applies to MX but the one thing I did learn was a technique for flat turns that works every time it's tried. Lean into the turn, shift your weight to the outside and put weight on the outside peg. I do this all the time but for some reason, in this situation, it doesn't seem to apply.

Waz

I took American Supercamp a couple years ago and they drill this into you. Years of street riding tells you to lean with the bike but thats obviously a no-no when traction is low.

It's not just shifting your weight, it's moving your whole body outside the turn. For a left turn, butt-crack is over the right edge of the seat, raised right arm at right angles and pushing the left bar out and down with your fully extended left arm.

Probably didn't apply because you, seeing the approaching peril&doom, were totally tensed up. I find it really easy to do the above in one direction but have a total body impediment in the other.

Practice is the only way. Plus obviously look where you want to go, thru the turn, don't target fixate

Thanx for the advise Mr. crazybrit...

Yes I do all that except for the arms at right angles and pushing down and out stuff. Sounds like it might improve my turns if I could incorporate that element.

Hey I see you're from around my neck of the woods!

Ever been out to Brown's camp? Is this the same place as some refer to as "the Burn"? It does run through the old Tillamook burn area but the burn was in the late 40's. It's mostly grown back now.

Thanx for the advise.

:::chants to himself:::

Don't target fixate..don't target fixate..don't target fixate..don't target fixate..don't target fixate..

[crazybrit]

Ever been out to Brown's camp? Is this the same place as some refer to as "the Burn"? It does run through the old Tillamook burn area but the burn was in the late 40's. It's mostly grown back now.

Yeah, I've not actually been out on the KDX this year. Sad. Combo of injury, riding my KTM dual-sport a lot and the bike being in bits. Hopefully I'll get on there in the next month. Not sure where exactly the Tillamook burn is. No clue which of the OHV areas (Browns, Diamond Mill, Jordan Creek, Trask) overlap it. Maybe all.